Difference between studying Chinese in Chinatown or China

M

MichaelK

秀才
Q: Is there?

Q2: Is there much?

I've been here for a while. I just want to know if you can get just as an effective result, speakingwise, moving to a part of Chinatown as opposed to China. (That is, for the most part meaning moving to the Sections of Chinatown inhabited by pure Chinese speakers?)

Acedemia is at your closest University but speaking ability?

Is there a huge difference between having a foreign Chinese accent and being from another province of China?

I know that the Chinese themselves have trouble understanding people from across the country. (i.e. "Baochun Lu shi shenme Lu?" is heard more than enough to be frightening) (we are actually standing on Baochun Lu and my Chinese speaker friend is from a city two hours away).

If someone could give me an honest informed assessment from a major city with a large Mandarin Speaking minority, it would be much appreciated.
 
J

Jianchuanbrit

举人
This is a really hard question to answer. Firstly, I have to say that I have little experience of Chinatowns. But where I come from (London) the Chinatown is small, the community mainly speaks Cantonese not Mandarin, and you would be hard pressed to actually live there owing to astronomic rents. In other words, it would be far better to learn Chinese by living in China. There may be other Chinatowns which would be well suited to learning Chinese. However, I would guess that even there, many people would be bilingual in the language of wider communication and that they would sooner use that language with you rather than struggle with the learner?s level of Chinese. You are also restricted t a small subset of ?China?, whereas living in China you at least have the opportunity easily to mingle with different strata of society, watch Chinese TV, travel to different locations and observe customs which may not be so openly practised in the West.

As for the differences in Chinese around the country and whether it matters which one you learn. Clearly, we will all have some kind of an accent when we speak Chinese, it might be obviously foreign or it might be a regional one. I was recently in Taiwan, and although I was not there long enough to observe the differences between the accent in Taipei and that on the mainland, people I spoke to told me that I had a mainland accent. I live in Yunnan, and people from outside the province can tell. This is no problem for me. I think it helps to have an accent from the place where you live, as it helps you get accepted. So for you, it would be best to have some degree of Shanghai accent since you live in Shanghai. Of course, if your accent becomes extremely dialectal, then people from other places may start to have trouble understanding you so you don?t want to overdo it! I should also add that as far as speed of acquisition goes, at the end of the day it doesn?t matter where you live: there are people here in China who have been here for years and still speak poorly, and others overseas who may speak brilliantly. Attitude is more important. But all else being equal, I would say living in a Chinese speaking country is the best place to learn.
 
M

MichaelK

秀才
I appreciate your reply.

I have heard of the harsh cost of living in London, for a student, from the brits I've met returning from Hong Kong in Beijing. (a really fun bunch). (tiger penis jiu never had that much of an attraction for me before ... and I don't think it will again anytime soon).

I think your absolutely right about the regional accent. I've made a slow migration down from DongBei to Shanghai. And I hope this is not concieved in anyway bad, but I would never have believed how one could be so patriotic about their City (except in sports). Recently in Qinhuangdao (where I want to go to next) they openly show disgust for Shanghairen while saying not to worry because I'm waiguoren but not meiguoren (Beijingren are considered ok, I do not know the criteria or history).

Not that it matters.

It's just a little confusing at times.

You are probably right. The people who actually do speak only mandarin abroad probably want to speak with their like in a Western city.

But a second opinion would be nice ...
any takers?

I'm a little interested in Toronto (the only other place to get SARS outside of ASIA (I may be wrong... I was in China through the whole event and news was a little iffy here.))

Anyone want to take on an analysis of Toronto Chinatowns?

(JCBrit, it's not that I disagree that China is the best place to learn Chinese,
or Taiwan for that matter (it's uncanny that Taiwanren and Dongbeiren have so much in common). I think I'm just getting a little homesick for a Mcdonalds breakfast ... yes I know that is the extreme of homesickness).

Thanx
 
G

George Herzog

举人
Studying in Chinatown

I grew up in San Francisco and never considered studying Chinese until I relocated to Taiwan to teach English. I started at 47 and remain addicted to Chinese, to linguistics and all its mysteries.

I see so many of my student fail in their language studies for two main reasons.

1. Phonemic awareness - they just cannot seem to grasp the sound of English while living in Taiwan.

2. Absence of realitic context - much of our language learning is based on the need to communicate. If you are comfortable in your language environment you will do much less to learn.

The same two factors apply to learning Chinese. I am sure that I would never have gotten Chinese phonemes right if I had stayed in San Francisco. It took me two years to get it in Taiwan. And, having an environment that explains so much of the Chinese social interaction and world view has really been an eye opener.

Add to all that the fact that there are currently really three Chinatown's in San Francisco [the oldest speaks Cantonese and is mainly from Hong Kong, the second and third which are almost the same age are a Mainland Chinese community that speaks Mandarin, but uses Simplified Characters and a Taiwanese community that prefers to speak Taiwanese (Fukian) and can speak Mandarin and use Traditional Chinese Characters].

It seems that learning Chinese in Chinatown is like learning to tango in Norway. Fun, but. . . .
 
S

SandRunner

Member
Only if absolutely necessary

The only reason to study Chinese outside of China is because that's all that is feasible within constraints such as time, money, family, etc. Of course there are differences - differences in culture, pronunciation, resources, commerce, etc.

Think about it this way: would you have the expectation that in the future you would primarily only talk to Chinese speakers from Chinatown(s)? If, in fact, that is your goal, then that would certainly be the best route (e.g. if one is seeking a civic position in SF...). On the other hand, familiarity with the culture of China is an important part of learning the language, and on the ground familiarity has no substitute.
 
I

ian

Member
Re: Studying in Chinatown

George Herzog said:
I grew up in San Francisco and never considered studying Chinese until I relocated to Taiwan to teach English. I started at 47 and remain addicted to Chinese, to linguistics and all its mysteries.

I see so many of my student fail in their language studies for two main reasons.

1. Phonemic awareness - they just cannot seem to grasp the sound of English while living in Taiwan.

2. Absence of realitic context - much of our language learning is based on the need to communicate. If you are comfortable in your language environment you will do much less to learn.

The same two factors apply to learning Chinese. I am sure that I would never have gotten Chinese phonemes right if I had stayed in San Francisco. It took me two years to get it in Taiwan. And, having an environment that explains so much of the Chinese social interaction and world view has really been an eye opener.

Add to all that the fact that there are currently really three Chinatown's in San Francisco [the oldest speaks Cantonese and is mainly from Hong Kong, the second and third which are almost the same age are a Mainland Chinese community that speaks Mandarin, but uses Simplified Characters and a Taiwanese community that prefers to speak Taiwanese (Fukian) and can speak Mandarin and use Traditional Chinese Characters].

It seems that learning Chinese in Chinatown is like learning to tango in Norway. Fun, but. . . .
Click to expand...

I totally agree with George here. People who struggle and fail to learn a language in their own country often find that it becomes a lot easier when they go to the country of the target langauge. However when going to the country whose language you want to learn you must be wise. When I was living in Beijing (for three years) I saw, and met many foreign students who came to learn Chinese and then hung out with ex-pats all the time (Beijing has a thriving ex-pat scene) - many of them made very little improvement in their Chinese.
It is probably much better to go to an area where there are few ex-pats and you will have a more productive learning experience.
 
J

jsikke

Member
Shanghai?

I'm not really sure of your DongBei pengyoumen who disdained Shanghai while informing you it was OK 'cuz you weren't meiguoren.

I've been living in Shanghai for 4 years and AM a Meigui ren. A former Haijun Luzhan Dui (USMC). I love it here.

I came over - first to visit, then to stay - at the invitation of one of my good (Meiguo) buddies who's been living here for 10+ years.

My wife of 3 months is Shanghainese and that's (by far) the best way to learn Chinese - not suggesting it for everyone but it is a damn fine way.

In Shanghai, they mostly speak Shanghainese. You wanna learn 'perfect' Mandarin? You shoulda stayed up in DongBei. Beijingese will of course tell you that everyone else's accent is rubbish and only theirs is the correct pronounciation.

Shanghainese folks don't care for DongBei folks much either.

Missing McD's b'fast? Where are you in Shanghai that you can't get hash browns & OJ? Granted a cheeseburger for b'fast is a bit odd but... TIC. Street food is plentiful, cheap & good for breakfast.

I don't think they offer the Beijing duck burrito at KFC's anywhere else (I'm guessing here), and a friend really like McD's Mango shakes.

viva la difference

Jeff
 
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