List of Phonetic Components

Discussion in 'Document Exchange' started by sobriaebritas, Oct 11, 2014.

  1. sobriaebritas

    sobriaebritas 探花

    Hi everybody,

    In the attached zip file there are two Excel documents with a list of characters present in other characters as phonetic components. PHN refers to the ones that do not contain phonetic components in themselves (庚, 化, etc.); and "phn" to the rest, that's to say, characters that contain a phonetic component, and are themselves phonetic components (康, 华, etc.).

    N.B.
    These two lists are not meant for learning characters, but rather for keeping track of them, and getting visual exposure to its graphic structure.

    < indicates a structural relationship, not a diachronic one.
    † indicates that the preceding character has been included only for contrast.
    [] indicates the phonetic component of the complex form

    File DCF PY.xlsx (please, see attached image DCF PY.jpg)
    Column A: HSK levels (0 = present in old HSK, absent in new)
    Column B: simple form
    Column C: complex form
    Column D: pinyin
    Column E: phonetic component
    Column F: PHN/phn
    Column G: radical
    Column H-I: comments

    File DCF PHN.xlsx (please, see attached image DCF PHN.jpg)
    Column A: HSK levels (0 = present in old HSK, absent in new one)
    Column B: PHN/phn
    Column C: simple form
    Column D: complex form
    Column E: pinyin
    Column F: phonetic component
    Column G: PHN/phn
    Column H-I: comments

    .- The data can be sorted (please, see attached images DCF PY (sorted), DCF PHN (sorted).jpg)

    .- An extra column may be added to keep track of the known characters (please, see attached images Keeping Track 1.jpg, Keeping Track 2.jpg)

    Feedback welcome.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
    alex_hk90 likes this.
  2. sobriaebritas

    sobriaebritas 探花

    Previous message updated on 2015/4/4
     
  3. sobriaebritas

    sobriaebritas 探花

    Hello, everyone,

    I have just added some 30 characters, included 2 from HSK Level 6 that were missing (贤, 惩).
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Miguel

    Miguel 榜眼

    Wow, very cool. Thanks!
     
  5. sobriaebritas

    sobriaebritas 探花

    Hola, Miguel:

    I'm glad you found it useful.

    The main difference between the two lists is the way the characters are ordered. All characters in PHN1 are included in PY1, but not the other way around. For example, characters like 一班年学着能而好日没事开电, etc. are included in PY1 but not PHN1. I didn't include them for at least one of the following reasons:

    1. They do not function as a phonetic element in other characters;

    2. They do not have a phonetic element in them;

    3. They are not likely to be wrongly taken to have a phonetic element in them (I admit this is rather subjective). For example, 色 sè is included in PHN1 (followed by the symbol †), because if one knows that 巴 bā ba is the head of a phonetic series, one may wrongly assume that the pronunciation of 色 is similar to that of 巴 (another example is 打). For that same reason, I should have included 外 wài (followed by the symbol †) in PHN1's phonetic series 卜 bo bǔ, 补 bǔ, 讣 fù, 赴 fù, 仆 pū pú, 扑 pū, 朴 pǔ. I'll probably review this, and post a new version of the PHN file.

    I'm going to check the 372 characters listed below to find out which (like 外 wài) could be included in the PHN file:

    一这年学着能而好日没么所事开电外道看业实意四等手表水位车入特报万再通信命件书六做量金色联革强品步服片德拿类集克死怎料找育示首席图李兴男另须香断飞送游击初双画省投器质诉班突答继负笔升杂款素封雪乱威互旅罪宝妇穿讨礼肉幸牛逐哭套戏怪阵弄抓厚玉休鼓冰麦毒床宽庆盖奋叹针尖闹烦妙繁夺奔闪闲弃闭竞咱涉启呆染毁扎扫棉宫祝丢森饮幻页肩晶宋狱辞臣罚鸣瓦曰赢牢抛劫熊剥埋轰尘丧傻秒贺吊贪迈袭盗燕猜岩漏牧霸艳鼠赫卧盈役辣姜歪驳卿嫩枚绵冤卵庞斑佩彪叠筋葬履闯亩廿粥霍巾爽寡邪乳尿穴雀壶拐兜帅耍鼎拓岳逆壳舟晋荐宠孕兔梳灶乖囚宰伞栗甩昼耿卸隙乾疫殷逸凹雁陋丫彬愣杏龟皂渊圳歹爪觅焚贬煞咒衍犬冉莽泵酥粤涩贮蜀茸秉毋牡妃岔寇薛坤噩磊囡卅兢凸牟瘪秤楞仄肘兮狄犀嚣祟郝吠掰羁卤宦雍簸粟羹韭肇帚茧冗昙兀亟钊斡卉壑箍罹邑邢骋戍啬毓眈豚蕊衅叱孑札梓弼睾赧熨羿卞敕戟侃杪蔷臀戌赘黾査冋菐

    By the way, have you heard about Outlier Linguistics Solutions? Here is a link to their website, in case you haven't yet.

    http://www.outlier-linguistics.com/

    ¡Salud y buena suerte!
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
  6. Miguel

    Miguel 榜眼

    Gracias!
    Sorry I deleted the previous post by mistake (basically I asked if the characters of PHN1 were included in PY1). Didn't know about the Outlier Linguistics and I just loved it!!! I'm still no sure if I want to get the experts or the essentials edition. Still got some questions about it.
    Most important, how is the integration with Pleco?
    Does it require a very fast cellphone? (mine kind of struggles sometimes with very demanding apps...)
    Can it be installed in the external SD card?
     
  7. mikelove

    mikelove 皇帝 Staff Member

    It'll be a Pleco add-on database, just like any other dictionary except that it can also be brought forward in the UI in tabs other than DICT. Should not be very demanding performance-wise, no more than an ordinary Pleco dictionary, and like other Pleco dictionaries it should be just fine on an SD card.
     
  8. Miguel

    Miguel 榜眼

    Wow... so right now it's still not available? Still crowfunding? Or if you buy it it's a different app?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
  9. Miguel

    Miguel 榜眼

    Ok, I've found it in their webpage. Release date June 2016. Will have to wait then but I'm definitely very interested! :)
    If you buy the dictionary in their store you don't need to buy again for Pleco?
    I guess it will be compatible with ARC Welder too, right?
    (Can't wait for this dictionary and the hanzi-pinyin conversion :D)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
  10. mikelove

    mikelove 皇帝 Staff Member

    Yes, you'd be buying the Pleco version through their store. Should be compatible with ARC Welder or whatever other emulation solution you like assuming that Pleco itself is :)
     
  11. Miguel

    Miguel 榜眼

    Great!
     
  12. John Renfroe

    John Renfroe 秀才

    Thanks for the mention, and the kind words!

    We're working on building out the database that we'll need in order to finish the dictionary. We've listed May 2016 as our expected release date, but we're hoping it won't take that long—no promises though! In the meantime we'll be releasing our semantic component posters (they're almost done and they look fantastic) and a workbook on how to learn Chinese characters.

    OP, I haven't looked over those files yet, but if I could point out one thing I noticed in your post: the character 化 actually does contain a sound component. "匕" has two different origins:

    One is a spoon and is pronounced bǐ, of course.

    The other is a picture of an upside-down person and is pronounced huà. So 化 is a picture of an upright person and an upside-down person (not too hard to get to "change" from that, right?), and 匕 plays the role of both sound component and semantic component—a form component, in this case—in that character.

    The two forms were very similar even in 甲骨文, and they've since converged into one form. 匕 huà isn't really used as a standalone character, which is why it's easy to miss.
     
  13. sobriaebritas

    sobriaebritas 探花


    Hi John,

    Your college Ash Henson pointed that out to me a couple of months ago in the comments sections of Outlier’s website. (By the way, I had the privilege to meet him this summer when he came to Beijing.)

    Slightly off-topic: it seems that in your dictionary of characters the following two phonetic series, for instance, will be presented separately:

    1. 且組姐祖租阻粗咀沮詛

    2.

    IMHO, it would make pedagogical sense to cross-reference both series through 助 or in some other way, so that the network of relations between characters becomes more explicit, and (arguably) mnemonically more effective.

    Thank you for participating in this forum!
     

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