Whats what in dictionary land?

[sandwich]

Hi, I've been attempting to pull the trigger and purchase various Pleco upgrades and dictionaries for over the past 6 months now, but keep not committing due to confusion over what dictionaries are good for what. (All the rumors of this mythical vaporware-like beast know as "Pleco 2.3" don't help things either.).

I am a beginner student studying Chinese in Taiwan and I think my requirements are pretty simple, a generic C-C and C-E dictionary. I feel that E-C is probably mostly unnecessary for now, but the bundles more or less force a E-C dictionary on you so I'm stuck buying one. I want the C-C as my main dictionary, and to use the C-E for understanding the C-C and trivial words. (as in I probably don't really need to read the Chinese definition for 蘋果).

Anyway, I can't decide what I want for what, looking over the demo dictionaries doesn't help much either. Can someone give some detailed information about what the pros and cons of each dictionary are? And who are the dictionaries aimed at?

[EDIT] Also more specific questions:
- Whats missing in the "21st Century E-C Dict" that the "ABC E-C Dict" was also included in the Professional bundle?
- What does "Pocket Oxford" offer over Pleco's free dictionary? (It looks mostly the same apart from if a words is a noun, verb, etc..)
- Are any of these dictionaries better for Taiwan use?
- At a first glance "Longman" seems harder but with more detailed that "Guifan", how is it for actual use? Better worse for learning?
- How useful would "Tuttle" be if I am using C-C for detail? (*also are some of its definitions weird? I found "巴 noun = cheek (see 尾巴)" which does not coincide with any other dictionary).
- Which C-E dictionary has the most detail?
- How will the upcoming dictionaries effect things? (Tuttle, the new E-C/C-E dictionaries, etc..).
- [EDIT 2] Just saw ACE on the site, but can't find it in the app. Is the ACE dictionary no more? or just not available on ios?

 

[mikelove]

(All the rumors of this mythical vaporware-like beast know as "Pleco 2.3" don't help things either.).

Definitely not vaporware - most of the big complicated features from it are already publicly available and being tested on Android - but certainly taking an eternity to show up, yes.

I am a beginner student studying Chinese in Taiwan and I think my requirements are pretty simple, a generic C-C and C-E dictionary. I feel that E-C is probably mostly unnecessary for now, but the bundles more or less force a E-C dictionary on you so I'm stuck buying one. I want the C-C as my main dictionary, and to use the C-E for understanding the C-C and trivial words. (as in I probably don't really need to read the Chinese definition for 蘋果).

A C-C for Taiwan is a little tricky - we've had very little luck licensing anything from a Taiwan-based publisher. I'd probably go with the Longman since it's at least a bit more fanti-friendly than Guifan, but since its vocabulary is not enormous you might want to complement it with the Guifan too, or even go with Guifan only and put up with occasional fanti glitches. (Guifan is actually about to get a nice upgrade to the new edition, and along with that we're hoping to improve its fanti conversions a bit, but it probably still won't support fanti as well as Longman does)

Anyway, I can't decide what I want for what, looking over the demo dictionaries doesn't help much either. Can someone give some detailed information about what the pros and cons of each dictionary are? And who are the dictionaries aimed at?

I'm sorry the demo versions aren't helping... have you tried comparing different dictionaries' take on the same word?

- Whats missing in the "21st Century E-C Dict" that the "ABC E-C Dict" was also included in the Professional bundle?

Pinyin - it doesn't have any (though you can cross-reference it by tapping on words). Also has shorter definitions, which can be very useful in "what's the best Chinese word for this" type scenarios.

- What does "Pocket Oxford" offer over Pleco's free dictionary? (It looks mostly the same apart from if a words is a noun, verb, etc..)

E-C dictionary, plus different definitions / examples - you might find it provides a clearer explanation for some things.

- Are any of these dictionaries better for Taiwan use?

See above - probably Longman but I can't say for sure. ABC has gotten a lot of criticism from Taiwan-oriented people here for sloppiness with a few of its fanti conversions (游/遊 being the chief offender) but I believe they actually do have some Taiwan-oriented reviewers / editors so aside from those minor things it's probably pretty solid; still, in some areas (Taiwan-specific pronunciations, e.g.) you might actually get better results with CC-CEDICT than with almost any paid dictionary, simply because it gets heavier peer review - people who are interested in promoting Taiwanese Mandarin are going to make darn sure that it gets the important words right.

- At a first glance "Longman" seems harder but with more detailed that "Guifan", how is it for actual use? Better worse for learning?

There are probably other people here who can answer that one better than I can - really something you'd want to read through more definitions for, though.

- How useful would "Tuttle" be if I am using C-C for detail? (*also are some of its definitions weird? I found "巴 noun = cheek (see 尾巴)" which does not coincide with any other dictionary).

Honestly, if you're feeling confident enough to use a C-C dictionary now it might be a bit beneath you - you might find it useful for its examples, though.

- Which C-E dictionary has the most detail?

Of the three paid ones - ABC, Pocket Oxford and Tuttle - Tuttle has lots of details but very few entries, Oxford has fewer details but more entries, and ABC has even fewer details but even more entries. (and some very detailed part-of-speech classifications that can actually be quite useful once you learn them)

- How will the upcoming dictionaries effect things? (Tuttle, the new E-C/C-E dictionaries, etc..).

There are too many of those that we haven't announced yet (and would rather not have people start planning around in case we cancel them) for me to give you a definitive answer on that. I can say that we don't have any more C-C titles in the pipeline at the moment that are more Taiwan-friendly than our current offerings, but we do have two C-E titles in the works that you might find you prefer to the current three.

- [EDIT 2] Just saw ACE on the site, but can't find it in the app. Is the ACE dictionary no more? or just not available on ios?

ACE is now the free built-in PLC.

 

[sandwich]

(All the rumors of this mythical vaporware-like beast know as "Pleco 2.3" don't help things either.).

Definitely not vaporware - most of the big complicated features from it are already publicly available and being tested on Android - but certainly taking an eternity to show up, yes.

Yeah, I know. Wasn't seriously suggesting it was. Will be good to finally use it when its done, hopefully I will have picked a dictionary by then.

Anyway, I can't decide what I want for what, looking over the demo dictionaries doesn't help much either. Can someone give some detailed information about what the pros and cons of each dictionary are? And who are the dictionaries aimed at?

I'm sorry the demo versions aren't helping... have you tried comparing different dictionaries' take on the same word?

Yes, that's exactly how I'm looking at them. Searching for words like 愛 and 安 to get a basic idea, but like I said I am a beginner, so the list of words starting with 'a' that I can think of, isn't very long. Sure I can compare random words and note entry errors (I just randomly tapped on 靉 and noticed that Guifan's definition is "見下", which I'm assuming means I should look at the definition listed under 靉 in the paper version.[EDIT] Also 嗷, is this common?), but I feel it would be more useful to be able to compare the dictionaries with more words that I already know.

A hand picked selection of a couple hundred words to compare would probably be better the first n words in the dictionary. Either that, or maybe there just needs to be a list of 50+ good words to look at that are available in the current demo dictionaries.

- Whats missing in the "21st Century E-C Dict" that the "ABC E-C Dict" was also included in the Professional bundle?

Pinyin - it doesn't have any (though you can cross-reference it by tapping on words). Also has shorter definitions, which can be very useful in "what's the best Chinese word for this" type scenarios.

No Pinyin is probably not a big thing (for me), am actually hoping that in 2.3 it'd be possible to turn off all Pinyin/Bopomofo for example sentences to clean up the clutter. (I do know there is "Pron system: skip" but I want to be able to read the entries pronunciation, and that option breaks some dictionaries).

Your second point is interesting however. How does it compare with NPW for this? Would you say that 21st Century E-C is better for translation, but less so for learning the language?

See above - probably Longman but I can't say for sure. ABC has gotten a lot of criticism from Taiwan-oriented people here for sloppiness with a few of its fanti conversions (游/遊 being the chief offender) but I believe they actually do have some Taiwan-oriented reviewers / editors so aside from those minor things it's probably pretty solid; still, in some areas (Taiwan-specific pronunciations, e.g.) you might actually get better results with CC-CEDICT than with almost any paid dictionary, simply because it gets heavier peer review - people who are interested in promoting Taiwanese Mandarin are going to make darn sure that it gets the important words right.

Yep, already fallen for that one. Are these kinds of things fixable or are we stuck with such "errors"?

- Which C-E dictionary has the most detail?

Of the three paid ones - ABC, Pocket Oxford and Tuttle - Tuttle has lots of details but very few entries, Oxford has fewer details but more entries, and ABC has even fewer details but even more entries. (and some very detailed part-of-speech classifications that can actually be quite useful once you learn them)

Tuttle does seem to be the most detailed, but..... I guess I was hoping for too much. Something similar to some of the J-E dictionaries I've used in the past would be nice. (Not that Japanese has anything to do with Pleco.)

There are too many of those that we haven't announced yet (and would rather not have people start planning around in case we cancel them) for me to give you a definitive answer on that. I can say that we don't have any more C-C titles in the pipeline at the moment that are more Taiwan-friendly than our current offerings, but we do have two C-E titles in the works that you might find you prefer to the current three.

Not announcing them is good, I wouldn't want to sit around and wait for a dictionary that wont be out until after I'm finished studying.

- [EDIT 2] Just saw ACE on the site, but can't find it in the app. Is the ACE dictionary no more? or just not available on ios?

ACE is now the free built-in PLC.

Ah, right'o ACE is the Pleco dictionary. Got it.

 

[mikelove]

Yes, that's exactly how I'm looking at them. Searching for words like 愛 and 安 to get a basic idea, but like I said I am a beginner, so the list of words starting with 'a' that I can think of, isn't very long. Sure I can compare random words and note entry errors (I just randomly tapped on 靉 and noticed that Guifan's definition is "見下", which I'm assuming means I should look at the definition listed under 靉 in the paper version.[EDIT] Also 嗷, is this common?), but I feel it would be more useful to be able to compare the dictionaries with more words that I already know.

A hand picked selection of a couple hundred words to compare would probably be better the first n words in the dictionary. Either that, or maybe there just needs to be a list of 50+ good words to look at that are available in the current demo dictionaries.

Good idea - the dictionary demo'ing really needs to be overhauled in general, we're looking at redesigning Add-ons to provide more information (including a comparison sample of entries) right on the info page so you don't even need to download anything first.

Re your 見下 question, basically that just means that Guifan doesn't have a definition for that character by itself, only in compounds. We could consider getting rid of those entries altogether, I suppose, but we generally think it's better to leave them in so that you can get the Pinyin for the character at least; however, it would probably behoove us to provide a hyperlinked list of the 見下 entries rather than requiring you to go back and tap on the (>) button to view them.

No Pinyin is probably not a big thing (for me), am actually hoping that in 2.3 it'd be possible to turn off all Pinyin/Bopomofo for example sentences to clean up the clutter. (I do know there is "Pron system: skip" but I want to be able to read the entries pronunciation, and that option breaks some dictionaries).

That's on our to-do list, but since we're not sure whether our semantic tagging will actually be in its final form in 2.3 (still waiting on finished new type design that was supposed to be ready in September, and we're not going to wait forever...) it may have to wait for a later release.

Your second point is interesting however. How does it compare with NPW for this? Would you say that 21st Century E-C is better for translation, but less so for learning the language?

They're pretty similar - some people prefer the ABC and some the NWP. If you're going with the ABC C-E I'd definitely opt for the ABC E-C, though. 21CN is really more of a "how do I say this obscure thing in Chinese" type dictionary - great for stuff like proper nouns and technical terms; it also has a *ton* of example sentences, so if you're looking for a particularly subtle translation for a word like "go" I'd say your chances of finding an example sentence employing it in 21CN are a bit better than in the other two.

Yep, already fallen for that one. Are these kinds of things fixable or are we stuck with such "errors"?

With ABC it's tricky because they update it regularly and we don't want to lose access to those updates by making our own fork - we are, however, exploring the possibility of adding a "fuzzy search" mode that would match fanti against other fanti that map to the same jianti. (and could also be used for easily confused characters and other things) We've also reported the errors that we've found to the ABC editors (as I imagine have several other people) so hopefully at some point they'll update those entries to use the correct fanti.

PLC has a few of those errors too (was developed originally only in simplified and we had to add traditional ourselves, as is the case with a lot of our dictionaries) but those we do have the ability to fix.

Tuttle does seem to be the most detailed, but..... I guess I was hoping for too much. Something similar to some of the J-E dictionaries I've used in the past would be nice. (Not that Japanese has anything to do with Pleco.)

That one's just a case of bad timing, I'm afraid - right around the time that there started to be enough money in Chinese learning to justify creating dictionaries like those, people started replacing their giant printed dictionaries with apps like Pleco, and it suddenly became much harder for a publisher to justify the investment in creating a huge new C-E dictionary.

Filling that void is actually a big part of the reason why we've invested so much time recently into stuff like semantic tagging and merged multi-dictionary search - long-term, we'd like to get all of our content integrating together well enough that you can look up a word and essentially get a giant "meta-dictionary" entry for it, with a zillion example sentences and all of the other reference data (frequency, synonyms, usage notes, etc) that you might get from a high-end Japanese or French or whatever dictionary.

 

[sandwich]

Just as a follow up, I went with the Professional Bundle last night and so far, I think I would have been better with the Basic Bundle + 21cn. ABC just doesn't seem like much of an improvement over PLC + CC. Hopefully it's just that I haven't spent enough time with it yet and it's just buyers anxiety.

 

[gato]

The ABC E-C dictionary is much smaller than the ABC C-E dictionary (18,630 vs. 197,191 entries).
The 21 Century E-C dictionary is bigger still at 278,067 entries.
http://www.pleco.com/abcec.html

The ABC C-E dictionary does have quite a lot of terms that are not in the PLC C-E, particularly classical Chinese terms.

 

[mikelove]

The ABC C-E dictionary does have quite a lot of terms that are not in the PLC C-E, particularly classical Chinese terms.

Also very detailed parts of speech - see http://www.pleco.com/ipmanual/abc.html#pos for a guide.

That being said, if you're unhappy with it we can probably get Apple to give you a refund so that you can buy the Basic + 21 instead - contact support once you've made up your mind about that.

 

[Joel J Reuben]

I am level 5 of 6 on the HSK (new type) and was wondering whether I should buy the professional bundle or the basic bundle. It seems that the professional bundle is for completely fluent speakers of which I am bit?

 

[mikelove]

At that level I'd say Professional - it's good for anybody intermediate or above, really, and even for beginners it's OK (just perhaps a bit more than necessary).

 

[yuvalcho]

I already have the basic bundle (paid) + extra paid features, but no extra dictionary. I want to buy 1-3 of them, still contemplating on which ones...is there any date for new dictionaries to be released, and also i'm wondering if there is or will be a bundle price?
I feel the basic ones are ok for the beginning, but now i find them not enough, they r not exact. meaning there's no exact explanation for HOW to use a word, just the definition, even an example isnt enough sometimes...so i'm guessing maybe i need a good c-c one.

Thanks.

 

[mikelove]

No date in mind for new releases at the moment, most of our editorial efforts at the moment are going to retooling existing titles instead.

What sort of dictionary are you looking for? What type of information would you like more of?

 

[yuvalcho]

first of all, just to b clear, there is no bundle for dictionaries? i mean if u buy the expert version u get a few extra, which means it's kind of a bundle. is there a bundle for upgrade?

what i want is....difficult to say actually. i mean u go to lesson and they give u 2 words, that in the dictionary are the same, but it seems that u cant really use them in the same way or the same situation. i'm hoping there is a dictionary that actually tell u in what way u can use it. lets face asking for a dictionary to tell u when not to use is too much (though would be nice). example...turan, huran, jingran,... they have a million of them, but turan can be used in situations the others cannot, could be nice it would b explained. the english word definition isnt enough, cause when u'll use it, u might use it wrong without knowing (i'm guessing some of it is a grammar thing, but sti;;, maybe it's better in the chinese ones). i'm thinking maybe a c-c dictionary might have a more complete explanation.

 

[mikelove]

Not at the moment, no - we haven't found that there's any specific combination of extra dictionaries that people find especially desirable, everybody seems to want different things.

What you're looking for would probably best be covered by a synonym dictionary, which we don't offer yet (but are working on), but you can get it for common words at least from the Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian - it includes an explanatory note for huran versus turan (but no jingran). The Longman Advanced has this information too, though it's fanti-only.