Dunhuang17
秀才
Hmm ok but I think I'll wait to do this directly through Pleco.
Outlier Dictionary of Chinese Characters
- Thread starter mikelove
- Start date
schorschi100
Member
I am extremely disappointed in the Dictionary, to the point that I actually consider it a scam. I do understand that this is supposed to be an ongoing project, but the current version is nothing more than a bunch of characters, mostly saying "this radical is a sound component" and "this radical is a semantic component" (for heaven's sake this is something you learn within a month.....). Practically no analysis at all, no historical information, no etymology, and generally nothing more than what a first-year chinese student can collect on the internet. The whole thing resembles nothing at all the online trial, and the price for this is simply outrageous. The information presented is less than in any decent online dictionary (e.g., archchinese, chineseetymology, or taeglichchinesisch for the german speaking among us), and even if one copied ten characters per day (for this ridiculously sparse amount of information), it should be finished by now. The iLearnChinease app (unfortunately not updated since 2011) is what it is supposed to look like (according to the presentations and blog entries in the outlier page). Sorry to say, I anticipated a breakthrough app for my Chinese learning and I just through ten euros out of the window for nothing....
JD
状元
So, ask them for a refund.
As one of the Kickstarter backers of the project from early 2015, yeah, the progress has been slower than I'd like too. But one of the original founders stole all the startup money and absconded. The mini edition that's available now is more, IMO, of a stopgap and demonstration of goodwill. The whole project is years behind the original plan, but like any business, they need cashflow to continue to fund ongoing operations.
If you look at their website, the available edition is mainly just semantics of a few items. Why did you expect more? The historical stuff that's in a few of the mini version is just a teaser for what will be in the expert edition.
Admittedly, the expert and essentials editions are not out yet. The website says that by saying they are "pre order".
When will they be available? Time will tell when/if they will be.
I, however, will choose to trust they are making a good-faith effort, and even if Outlier closes up shop and my kickstarter money (which is an order a magnitude more than your 10 euro) goes down the drain, I look at it as a speculative investment to help out a dream. Sometimes dreams don't work out. But if you don't try, you'll never know.
YMMV.
TL/DR: Ask for a refund.
JD
Ash
进士
What version of the dictionary are you looking at? If you don't have version 1.1, I recommend that you download it. If you look at the entry for 車/车 and there is no ancient form there, then you have 1.0. If you do already have 1.1, it has full etymologies for the most common 500 characters. All semantic components have ancient forms so that you can make sense of the form explanations. References are cited for each of the most common 500 characters. We have blog posts and videos on our site that explain how to best make use of the mini version. We differ from the other sites you mention in that these analyses are based upon actual paleography. I'm a PhD candidate at National Taiwan Normal University in the Chinese department. I specialize in paleography and Old Chinese phonology and have been engaged in these fields for over 10 years. If you use Facebook, I would encourage you to join our discussion group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1149591165162853/?fref=ts). I doubt you would come away from reading the discussion with the impression that we are scamming you. More importantly, go through the entries for the most common 500 characters in version 1.1. I wish you could have seen how excited our intern was after editing those entries. She teaches Chinese and was still thrilled at how much she learned.
It seems like you bought the Mini Edition expecting the Expert Edition. Perhaps we didn't make that clear enough on our site. We are open to changing how things are presented in order to make it clearer. If you bought the dictionary through our website and want a refund, just get in touch.
Greetings from Beijing, Ash et al.
I'm commenting the following here because I don't use Facebook.
Many of us see in version 1.1 of the Outlier Dictionary of Chinese Characters a promising step forward, and are happy about that. But at the same time, I can't help feeling a bit puzzled when a I look up characters like, for example, 耐. Why? Simply because all the information I find in the entry for that character is its pronunciation (nài), the pronunciation of its sound component 而 (ér), and the fact that its other component is semantic; but I don't get any information about the meaning of either 耐 (the character I'm looking up), or 而 (its semantic component).
Maybe that's so because 耐 is not one of the most common 500 characters, I don't know.
Anyway, I've always had trust in you and your colleagues, and from the very beginning I've had the feeling that the Outlier Dictionary of Chinese Characters will be a milestone in its field.
Good luck, and good health to you all!
I'm commenting the following here because I don't use Facebook.
Many of us see in version 1.1 of the Outlier Dictionary of Chinese Characters a promising step forward, and are happy about that. But at the same time, I can't help feeling a bit puzzled when a I look up characters like, for example, 耐. Why? Simply because all the information I find in the entry for that character is its pronunciation (nài), the pronunciation of its sound component 而 (ér), and the fact that its other component is semantic; but I don't get any information about the meaning of either 耐 (the character I'm looking up), or 而 (its semantic component).
Maybe that's so because 耐 is not one of the most common 500 characters, I don't know.
Anyway, I've always had trust in you and your colleagues, and from the very beginning I've had the feeling that the Outlier Dictionary of Chinese Characters will be a milestone in its field.
Good luck, and good health to you all!
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John Renfroe
进士
Yes, for about 1000 entries, there’s only a component breakdown. Those will be filled out in the coming updates, in order of frequency.
The idea behind the Mini Edition is that it’s a bit of a DIY version. It only includes meanings for semantic components; those are necessary in order to understand the different meanings a semantic component can have in other characters. But for most characters there’s only a component breakdown and/or a form explanation. The idea is that you can find the meanings in other Pleco dictionaries just by tapping or scrolling, so the Mini Edition doesn’t include that except for semantic components.
In the current version (v1.1) the 500 most common characters have detailed information in the component breakdown. There are another 1000 entries or so which are like 耐, with less detail in the explanation. The most basic thing you need to know when you learn a character is the proper breakdown, and you need to know what each component is doing. The fact that 而 is the sound component for 耐 is by no means obvious. So, even with this minimal entry, you are already set out on the right path by knowing what the proper breakdown is and what each component is doing in the character. Later, when the breakdowns are filled in, you’ll have even more information and things will be even easier.
Essentially, you’ll see three types of entries in the Mini Edition:
The idea behind the Mini Edition is that it’s a bit of a DIY version. It only includes meanings for semantic components; those are necessary in order to understand the different meanings a semantic component can have in other characters. But for most characters there’s only a component breakdown and/or a form explanation. The idea is that you can find the meanings in other Pleco dictionaries just by tapping or scrolling, so the Mini Edition doesn’t include that except for semantic components.
In the current version (v1.1) the 500 most common characters have detailed information in the component breakdown. There are another 1000 entries or so which are like 耐, with less detail in the explanation. The most basic thing you need to know when you learn a character is the proper breakdown, and you need to know what each component is doing. The fact that 而 is the sound component for 耐 is by no means obvious. So, even with this minimal entry, you are already set out on the right path by knowing what the proper breakdown is and what each component is doing in the character. Later, when the breakdowns are filled in, you’ll have even more information and things will be even easier.
Essentially, you’ll see three types of entries in the Mini Edition:
- Characters which serve as semantic components in other characters (about 300): these will have detailed entries, including a form explanation, ancient form image, meaning trees, stroke order diagrams, and component breakdowns if applicable
- Characters which aren’t semantic components and are composed of more than one component (about 1300): these will have component breakdowns, and a form explanation if necessary in order to understand the relationship between components
- Characters which aren’t semantic components and can’t be broken down into components (about 200): these will have a form explanation and usually an ancient form
Is it possible to look somewhere at the list of first 500 characters? Thank you.
In Pleco Settings>Manage Dictionaries>Outlier Mini SC> Browse all dictionary entries it is possible to see all dictionary terms, and note that some term has more explanations, but a list can be useful for a test of future features.
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John Renfroe
进士
We're not ready to publish our own frequency info yet, but here are the top 50, in trad and simp, in no particular order 
的一人了上下个之也于大子中为以不他出发可对生用会在地而自过那年行作你我时来貝这事到和所於來是為要個時能這得着著過就然發道會對
You can also refer to other lists online, such as this one. Most of the first few hundred characters will be the same in any frequency list, though not necessarily in the same order.
的一人了上下个之也于大子中为以不他出发可对生用会在地而自过那年行作你我时来貝这事到和所於來是為要個時能這得着著過就然發道會對
You can also refer to other lists online, such as this one. Most of the first few hundred characters will be the same in any frequency list, though not necessarily in the same order.
Ash
进士
@schorschi100: Check out the entry for 做. That level of explanation is coming for all entries. Right now it's only available for the most common 500 chars. Skeletal breakdowns are available for the rest for now. They will be filled in in order of frequency.
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I also agree that, as a backer, I feel very disappointed. Maybe some day there will be some surprise, but I feel that the promised dictionary is still very very far in the future (I am talking about something like the promised version in Chinese). I just feel that till the time it is developed (if ever) other dictionaries will already available. Actually when searching for the etymology of a character, I directly look up at http://www.vividict.com/ and I take it for granted that the info in outlier will be much less than the one available in that website. Anyway still hoping some day we will see something great.
Ash
进士
The project is moving forward despite all of the setbacks we've faced. Everything we promised will be delivered, including a Chinese language version. Delivery will be as fast as the resources we have available to us allow. The more resources we have, the faster it will go. I don't recommend that site you mention. I looked up 5 characters and it got stuff wrong for all of them. This site is better: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/search.php?word=是, but it has its own issues. For instance, the top part of 是 is definitely not 早 "early." At the time 是 was created, zǎo "early" was written via sound loan with an ancient form of 草 (the one that is actually the sound component for 造 -- see our expert entry). After that, it was written with 日 "sun" over 棗 zǎo. The form used today, 早, is very likely a shorthand version of 日 over 棗 and it didn't appear until the Qín dynasty, whereas 是 appears at least 500 years earlier during the Western Zhou period.
rizen suha
状元
outlier dict states for 張 that 長 is a sound component (only).
student dict classical medieval states the following important meanings:
弓 bow
長 grow, develop
張 string a bow, draw a bow, open out, spread out, set out, set up (eg a tent)
as i have mentioned in a previous post, i find that a great many characters have components that according to outlier are merely sound components but, as in this case, are closely semantically related to the character.
it may be a coincidence, but i find this apparent relationship (in its "strong", convincing form) to be present in approx 20% of all characters.
outlier team, please be relentless when it comes to determining if a sound component is only that or if it was (if even "perhaps") "chosen" to serve also a semantic purpose. i must say that everything else being equal, i would suspect that modus operandi to be the natural mechanism for the scholars of their time when designing (or simply, coming up with) a new character: would not anybody rather choose a component that convey both meaning and sound?
thanks for your work and keep up the spirit
student dict classical medieval states the following important meanings:
弓 bow
長 grow, develop
張 string a bow, draw a bow, open out, spread out, set out, set up (eg a tent)
as i have mentioned in a previous post, i find that a great many characters have components that according to outlier are merely sound components but, as in this case, are closely semantically related to the character.
it may be a coincidence, but i find this apparent relationship (in its "strong", convincing form) to be present in approx 20% of all characters.
outlier team, please be relentless when it comes to determining if a sound component is only that or if it was (if even "perhaps") "chosen" to serve also a semantic purpose. i must say that everything else being equal, i would suspect that modus operandi to be the natural mechanism for the scholars of their time when designing (or simply, coming up with) a new character: would not anybody rather choose a component that convey both meaning and sound?
thanks for your work and keep up the spirit
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Shun
状元
I think my professor once said something to that effect, and Ash should be able to elaborate on that, too.
But if I think about it, if the phonetic component was there first, with the semantic component added to make the character less ambiguous, the meaning must have been present in the phonetic component first. Just checked on Wikipedia, which has a clear explanation:
“However, the phonetic component is not always as meaningless as this example would suggest. Rebuses [≈ phonetic components] were sometimes chosen that were compatible semantically as well as phonetically. It was also often the case that the determinative merely constrained the meaning of a word which already had several. 菜 cài "vegetable" is a case in point. The determinative 艹 for plants was combined with 采 cǎi "harvest". However, 采 cǎi does not merely provide the pronunciation. In classical texts it was also used to mean "vegetable". That is, 采 underwent semantic extension from "harvest" to "vegetable", and the addition of 艹 merely specified that the latter meaning was to be understood.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character_classification#Phono-semantic_compound_characters
I would also be in favor of making the Outlier dictionary definitions longer rather than shorter, so they can explain these kinds of connections more elaborately. It doesn't have to be concise at all, in my opinion.
Ash
进士
First of all, I'm relentless about everything. Ask anyone who has ever gotten into an argument with me. : ) Second of all, I think the problem here is that the idea that ancient scholars were sitting around looking for sound components that also had a meaning is flawed. When sound components have meaning, it's almost always the case that you're dealing with a 分化字，i.e., a character that is derived from an existing character. Take 你 for example. The 尔 here is shorthand for 爾, which means "you." 尔 ěr is both a sound component and a meaning component in 你. This is because 你 was created by taking an existing character for "you" and adding 亻 to it. If you can't see the sound relationship, note that it's only the sounds of the characters / components *at the time of the character's creation* that matter. But, "er" has very close ties with "n-" and sometimes "m-". Knowing that rule is very useful actually. Ex: 倪 &兒; 而 & 耐; 爾 & 彌; etc. Another example: in 暮, 莫 is both a semantic and a sound component. 莫 is the original character for 暮 meaning "time when the sun goes down." 莫 got borrowed for its sound to mean "nothing." So, another "sun" was added to 莫 to get 暮. Now, 莫 means "nothing" and 暮 means "time when the sun goes down." Another issue is that it doesn't matter what the characters / components mean at a later time in history. It only matters what they mean *at the time of the character's creation*. Thirdly, I'm not opposed to the idea of sound components expressing a meaning, but I'm only going to make decisions based upon evidence.
Back to the question of 張:
《說文》：張，从弓長聲 (張 gets its meaning from 弓 and its sound from 長). 何琳儀、董蓮池、黃德寬、徐在國 all agree with the Shuowen (Note that the books of theirs that I'm referencing exist for the sole purpose to explain a character's etymology and point out any errors in the Shuowen). None of the scholars in 《古文字詁林》 state that 長 gives a meaning. It doesn't appear in 王力《同源字典》 either. I even looked at 谷衍奎《漢字源流字典》. I don't approve of 谷衍奎's scholarship because he (she?) tries to turn everything into a 會意字 and he also doesn't think it has a meaning. 許慎 (author of the Shuowen) isn't shy about assigning meanings to sound components either. In ancient texts, 長's usual meanings are cháng : long (in time or space); zhǎng: old; zhàng: excessive; abundant. In 《文選》(520 AD), 長 is used to mean 生也. So, "grow" doesn't show up until way late. However, in 《墨子》(ca. 468–ca. 391 BC)、《莊子》(369–286 BC) 長 gets used to write 張 (one time each). In 《莊子》, it also has the meaning 增 in one place. 張 is a Warring States (roughly 475 BC to 221 BC) character. 《故訓匯纂》 lists 244 quotes from ancient texts and only 5 or 6 of them give meanings related to "grow" or "increase" (and two of those appear way too late in history to matter). If I were to chose a sound component for its meaning, I'd chose it for one of its common meanings, not an obscure one. If you go with an obscure one, no one is going to even notice or maybe that's exactly what happened: nobody noticed. I would say that it's not impossible for 長 to be giving a meaning in 張, but the data shows that it's highly unlikely.
Ash
进士
What you're referring to is 分化字, i.e., a new character being created out of an existing character. I'm not sure the Wikipedia explanation is correct regarding 采 though. 采 is the original character for 採 "to pick." I glanced through its usage in 《故訓匯纂》 and its meanings were more along the lines of "picking," "selecting" and "gathering." I'm not sure where "harvest" comes from (though it is similar to "gathering.") I also checked 王力《古漢語字典》 and he doesn't list "harvest" either. In 《漢書》 it does mean 采取蔬果之屬, but it also means 采取金之處 there as well. I would say that 采 does not give a meaning in 菜, though it does give meaning and sound in 採. It probably also gives meaning and sound in 彩, though I'd have to look into it further.
As far as the definition length, the Mini Edition won't give long definitions. The Essentials Edition, however, gives a lot more meanings and shows the logical relationships between the different meanings (see the entry for 反 or 角 for example).
Ash
进士
@rizen suha: You will be pleased to know that as I was poking around looking for information and examples to answer your post, I discovered that for 把, we had 巴 listed as only a sound component, but it actually gives a meaning! So, I've already corrected that and it will go out in the next update.