Beta 3 and Design Changes

FUmminger

秀才
Here's an idea: instead of just getting rid of the embedded text-reader palette from the search view, why not also get rid of it from the document reader? Instead, just use the pop-up definitions that are used in the search view. Why? 2 reasons: 1) It makes the UI more consistent 2) it leaves the document reader screen less cluttered and allows one to see more of the text that one is trying to read. If one knows most of the characters in a text, the text-reader palette is just a distraction and annoyance, covering things up. You really only want to bring it up when you come to a new character/word that you don't know.

The text-reader palette does have some extra smarts about word boundaries that are not in the popup definition window, and it also has a dictionary select button. But I'd bet with a little thought this could be merged into the pop-up definition window in an elegant way, and these features would actually be useful there as well. After all, you got rid of the embedded text reader palette because it was redundant, because the popup definition window is used in its place as a document reader for reading the examples sentences. Therefore, since it is being used as a document reader, it would benefit from the document reader features.

-Frederick
 
Good idea! The text-reader palette is annoying and takes up space. The popup would be much more useful.

Also: is there any way to overwrite the way PD tries to find the longest possible match when tapping on a character? In my text in several instance, PD then finds wrong matches, but I have no way to just look up a single character or maybe two. What about marking several characters as in the ordinary main mode and then tapping? This would unify the user interface and give better ways of coping with wrong look-ups.
 

ldolse

状元
I'm going to lean towards arguing for the text reader palette - I think the reason you may find it annoying today because it's not quite working (though I'm just guessing). The biggest thing I need to do when translating a document is cycle through the dictionaries easily to get all senses of a definition and the different word breaks. I don't see a popup being flexible enough to cycle through dictionaries easily, etc.

I do have one big problem with the reader today - and this is the assumption that it's a document reader and not a general text translation tool. This assumes that I have a load of correctly formatted Chinese documents on my PDA. I don't, and I probably never will. What I need this function for is translating large blocks of text that I receive from various sources on my PDA - Text messages, email, Web Pages, RSS news articles, etc etc.

I expected the process should be something like this:
1. Copy the text from the other app into the clipboard
2. Paste it into the Reader.

The actual process is this:
1. Copy the text into another app into the clipboard.
2. Find some editor on the PDA that can save a document in a format Pleco likes (This in itself seems a daunting task, so I haven't gotten beyond step 2 cause I don't feel like going through Chinese pda text editor compatibility testing).
3. Save that text in a compatible format
5. Launch the reader
6. browse through the PDA to find the document you just saved, don't forget your format

I'll also emphasize that the reader starts with the premise that you're going to open a document, it doesn't start in a view mode, it starts in an open file mode. I think it should start just like any editor, and give me an empty view that is an editable text box. At that point I can paste text in or open a document easily with a file-open menu or icon on the toolbar.

As far as formats go, I'm a big fan of just pushing everyone to UTF-8 and UTF-16. Pleco could autodetect those unicode formats based on the BOM, so there's no need to add the complexity of choosing a format. I think all our lives would get better if the local encodings finally died (crossing my fingers).
 

ipsi

状元
Pleco can't do away with non-Unicode support, as this is all we get on Palm. Additionally, I think that text messages are all in GB2312. Or at least they appear fine with CJKOS, and that's all it does (for simplified, Big5 for trad). While I would love for the Document reader to support copy/paste, it's not really possible to do away with other encodings just yet. Sad as that may be. Also, there's no BOM if you're copy/pasting (not that it's necessary for UTF-8, but it is for 16).

Actually, adding support for popups, and a split screen for two files would be a wondeful translation aid, right? So you can type the translation to a new document, all the while keeping the old one visible.
 

ldolse

状元
I wasn't suggesting Pleco do away with non-unicode support copy and paste, etc, if there is any special support going on there. Not sure how Palm handles that with CJKOS. In PPC it's all unicode when it's handled by the OS, regardless of the original encoding.

I just meant that Pleco stick with Unicode document formats. The important thing is what Pleco supports, it doesn't matter what PalmOS itself supports. I imagine most people are creating their documents on PC and transferring them from there, if someone was editing documents on the Palm then there might be a problem. 8 bit locally encoded files just annoy me to no end, as there isn't any easy way to ascertain what they are.

I'm ok with keeping GB and Big5 though, I'd just like to see it handled a bit differently. Part of my gripe is that I'm forced to know what encoding my document is when I open it. If that dialog was set to some sort of auto-detect (at least for Unicode) by default I'd be happy, but right now I've got to sort through all the encodings and scratch my head over which one I've used. The three Unicode variants could just be replaced by 'Unicode', and make that the default format. Each Unicode type has a specific BOM, so there's no need for the user to know whether it's UTF-8 or UTF-16BE/LE - that info is in the file already. I would also argue that unicode files without BOMS aren't correctly formatted, and it's fine to say they're not supported.

As far as split screen two documents goes, that would be nice IF one was actually creating translated documents on the PDA. When I said translating I just meant reading and then translating in my head, I don't wish to record the translation. I realize others may wish for that functionality, I'm just not sure that's part of the design goals......

It also comes down to performance - I have a hunch that it would be difficult to make a popup perform as quickly as the palette/split screen, and I mean performance more as it relates to usability than screen rendering.
 

sfrrr

状元
Ummm. How did I miss the big announcement that you were junking UTF8 and UTF16? What are you substituting for them? Mosdt of my Chinese work on PDA and PC is in UTF8.

Sandra

Axim x51v, WM 5.
 
DITTO SANDRA. I didn't really understand that they are doing away with Unicode support either. Is that the case? That really is the main format I can get my documents into.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
FUmminger/haraldalbrecht/ldolse - have to come in on the side of the palette here as well, advanced Chinese students may not need to consult the dictionary more than once or twice per page but less advanced ones are going to be doing so pretty much every line and the popup adds an unnecessary delay. We're not trying to create the document reader you use for everything, we're trying to create the one you use for reading documents in Chinese, and having definitions in a palette fits with that goal.

But we do plan to allow you to hide the palette if you really don't like having it up there all the time, and we're still debating whether to bring up a pop-up definition or just temporarily reopen the palette when you look up a word in that mode.

FUmminger, good point about adding some extra smarts to the popup window though that may prove to be something we have to punt to a later version since it would be rather tricky.

haraldalbrecht - that's the idea behind those left/right buttons on each side, they're supposed to make it easy to look up a smaller subset of a word. So you can either use them to modify the highlight or just tap or tap-drag on the characters in the magnified box to select a smaller portion of the text. But yes, I suppose it might be worthwhile to add an option for it to only look up the first character you tapped on. If you highlight two characters it should (unless there's a bug) only look up those two specific characters and not try to modify the highlight, in theory this should happen with one character too but it probably doesn't right now.

ldolse, agree with you completely that the interface needs to be faster to access, I still think the default behavior should be to give you an open screen since it'll confuse the heck out of less-than-computer-savvy people to open up the reader and then have to figure out how to open a document (even if this is typical behavior in, say, Word), but adding for example an option to prompt you to paste in text from the clipboard if the clipboard contains any Chinese-formatted text might help matters, or making the reader remember its state when exiting so that if you exit while viewing a document and return to it later it won't go to the open box but will bring you right back to document viewing mode.

Making it an editable text box is a no-go, at least for now, we do a whole bunch of crazy stuff with the text display field to enable it to show slices of documents without having to have the entire document in memory at the same time and it wouldn't really be possible to enable editing in it as it stands now at least. We can still use the clipboard simply by copying the contents of the clipboard to a memory buffer and telling it that's the document, but making an actual text editor is a whole different issue.

ipsi - yes, can't really get rid of GB/Big5 yet, however nice it would be to live in a world in which they didn't exist. And yes, relying entirely on the byte order mark wouldn't work with copy-paste, though nobody's going to be doing that in UTF-16 on Palm anyway (couldn't, our Unicode clipboard doesn't work outside of Pleco) - probably for this we should always use the just-realized-we-haven't-added-to-preferences-yet External Text Encoding setting which is already something you're going to update based on which encoding CJKOS is set to use or which encoding your local cell carrier sends text messages in.

Split-screen support actually does exist in the reader now, but is designed for reading bilingual documents (so no edit function) and is about to be dropped from 2.0 (along with "PlecoDoc" format support in general, I think) in favor of bringing it back in a later, more document-centric release. (which may also incorporate a text editor)

ldolse again - Palm just blindly stores the text as a string of 8-bit characters without knowing or caring which encoding they're in, hence the need to configure it manually. Fair point about the BOM, but since it can be kind of tricky to add it to a document that doesn't have it, tech-support-wise it might be better to keep it optional. Perhaps we could add a rudimentary auto-detect feature for encodings which would check for a valid BOM, assume the appropriate Unicode format if it's there and if not do a quick check against the GB/Big5/UTF-8 Chinese encoding ranges and try to make a reasonable guess about which one a document was using.

Fleminator/sfrrr - no, no, no, no, no, we're not dropping Unicode support, that would be a terrible idea not to mention pointless since the software uses Unicode internally. Interesting little game of telephone, though...
 

ldolse

状元
Cool - I didn't mean to imply that I needed an actual editable text box, that was just the closest concept I was accustomed to when it came to copying and pasting.

I like the remember state idea. If it could remember the last state was a clipboard paste and have some sort of quick paste button I think that would do the trick for usability.

I'll still argue that files without a BOM aren't properly formatted :p, but if there was some sort of auto-detect default that would resolve that issue too.
 
mikelove said:
But we do plan to allow you to hide the palette if you really don't like having it up there all the time, and we're still debating whether to bring up a pop-up definition or just temporarily reopen the palette when you look up a word in that mode.
Sounds good to me. I suspect it would then work the same as the Chinese character input with PD1 (with PD2 I haven't yet it make work on my TX, only the full screen dialog works ... but has a duplicate and dysfunctional Done button as a layout reordering left-over).

that's the idea behind those left/right buttons on each side, they're supposed to make it easy to look up a smaller subset of a word. So you can either use them to modify the highlight or just tap or tap-drag on the characters in the magnified box to select a smaller portion of the text. But yes, I suppose it might be worthwhile to add an option for it to only look up the first character you tapped on. If you highlight two characters it should (unless there's a bug) only look up those two specific characters and not try to modify the highlight, in theory this should happen with one character too but it probably doesn't right now.
So far, the left/right arrows does not seem to function properly in my installation. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. As for selecting a single character I was so far unsuccessful in certain situations where PD2 tries to gobble as much characters as it can and even dragging the pen in order to select only a single character did not work ... PD2 did gobble several characters again. Very hungry application I have to admit, it loves to gobble characters. :mrgreen:
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Definitely some debugging needed there, then, as it is in pretty much the entire reader application. We're seeing a lot of the same problems here so they should be easy to find/fix at least. And yeah, we're well aware of the duplicate Done button, much like the vertical lines in Pocket PC in Beta 1 it's a minor annoyance that nonetheless bothers us enough that it'll probably get fixed a lot sooner than its severity would necessitate.
 
mikelove said:
We're seeing a lot of the same problems here so they should be easy to find/fix at least.
You lucky guy! If only I would come across such beasts that are not only easy to find but also easy to fix :(
 

chinacry

Member
Mike,
I've used the product in china since 2001 and moved from palm to ppc and have been thankful every minute of it. I love the direction of this new product too. Thanks for the hard work. I haven't thoroughly read through all the posts, so if I duplicate, please forgive. No need to reply to this stuff that I write either. You have done a great job at designing this in the past and trying to include all possible features. It's a hard job!


Feature Thoughts:
When highlighting text in a definition, you could hit the audio button and have it read all the highlighted text and not the definition. The definition could be read when there is no selected text. This would allow for testing of listening comprehension too and would be similar to the pinyin display for double/single(make that and option:) tapping.

When tappning a character, it would also be simple enough to show the pinyin on the Details tab of the Char Info screen. On the Compounds tab of the same screen, it would be great to be able to "go to a selected entry" but then return to the compounds screen to continue looking at uses of the word. I do that a lot in wenlin and found it natural to try in pleco.

I know its a long way from being finished and this has probably been addressed, but being able to paste into the document reader will probably be my biggest usage for the reader. Pasting chinese sms's or etexts/bible texts into it would be a huge help.

Possible Problem:
When entering a character in the input screen, it seems that a slight pause is needed between strokes, or the last stroke doesn't display. I originally thought I was writing out of the box, but after pausing, all the strokes show up and then I can click "recognize." I'm not sure if this has happened elsewhere. I have an imate jasjam with WM6. I use pleco 2 beta all the time now since it works better with wm6 than 1.0.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
haraldalbrecht - actually you'd be surprised by how easy most of the bugs we get are, I think partly because of the excellent (and underappreciated) quality of Palm's debugging tools and partly because the interesting/complicated parts of PlecoDict's code just aren't that big.

chinacry - thanks! Re these suggestions: I'm not wild about the audio playback idea, partly because I'm worried people would use it to make their Palm say very stupid and/or offensive things in Chinese but mostly because it just wouldn't do a very good job of it; even if it handled the text segmentation perfectly, and even if it had a recording in its database for every multi-syllable word in the sentence, it would require a LOT of extra coding to get the rhythm/speed right, not to mention context-related tone (and even syllable, e.g. de vs. di) changes.

The Details tab of Char Info already can show Pinyin if you choose the Mandarin field. But good point about Compounds, we've gotten another suggestion here to make that a pop-up window instead of just putting it in the main screen and I think that might be worth considering.

And yes, pasting into the document reader is definitely a priority. The original design for it actually had a system where you could navigate well-organized documents like the Bible or the Analects by book/chapter/verse, so you could pull up text from English and Chinese versions simultaneously; unfortunately that had to get dumped in this release at least but it's still something we'd like to add in the future.

Slow stroke input has already been widely discussed here and a fix should definitely be forthcoming in Beta 3.
 
Too bad...I would LOVE to be able to navigate a document by chapter and verse, or at least have a way to navigate more quickly through a large document. You know there are a lot of people who have finished formal language training who would still buy themselves a palm just so they could use pleco's document reader if only it worked well enough to move through a document and search relatively efficiently. Oh well, maybe in Pleco V 2.1
 
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