Pleco Desktop
- Thread starter james
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RobRedbeard
进士
I used to play Galactic Civ on OS/2 Warp 4 back in 1996. That was such a fun game.
Given that this platform is far more friendly to your code and has a bigger user base than all the others put together, I'm starting to think it would be a great place to have Pleco. Particularly, Kingsoft has somewhat reverted in the last two Google-coop versions.
Alas, there are still all those support issues.
Rob
Given that this platform is far more friendly to your code and has a bigger user base than all the others put together, I'm starting to think it would be a great place to have Pleco. Particularly, Kingsoft has somewhat reverted in the last two Google-coop versions.
Alas, there are still all those support issues.
Rob
I didn't realize Kingsoft was going backwards - not exactly tailored to English speakers learning Chinese anyway, but good to know. The support issues aren't necessarily a dealbreaker, they just require us to proceed carefully and make sure that we've got something reasonably bug-free / reliable before we even release the first version.
Dear Mr Love, et al,
I'm coming a little late to this conversation, but I have something to add (hopefully it's useful):
If you create a Desktop version for Mac and allow purchase transfers, then I will finally pay for a package.
I only use the free version of Pleco for iPhone because spending $50 for the basic package seems absurdly expensive. Pleco is tied to my device. If my iPhone dies, I need to spend $600 to use my dictionary again. (I'm a student, so I could get the discount--either way, it's high.)
But I would pay if there's Desktop version that I could transfer my purchases to. Then I'd feel like my dictionary had a permanent existence. Also, it'd mean I wouldn't have to whip out my iPhone if I want the convenience of Pleco when I'm at home.
I realize you're working on PC first...but the minute you create a Mac version I can transfer purchases to, you'll have my $35 (or $50). Or if works well on WINE that might be a start.
Thanks.
I'm coming a little late to this conversation, but I have something to add (hopefully it's useful):
If you create a Desktop version for Mac and allow purchase transfers, then I will finally pay for a package.
I only use the free version of Pleco for iPhone because spending $50 for the basic package seems absurdly expensive. Pleco is tied to my device. If my iPhone dies, I need to spend $600 to use my dictionary again. (I'm a student, so I could get the discount--either way, it's high.)
But I would pay if there's Desktop version that I could transfer my purchases to. Then I'd feel like my dictionary had a permanent existence. Also, it'd mean I wouldn't have to whip out my iPhone if I want the convenience of Pleco when I'm at home.
I realize you're working on PC first...but the minute you create a Mac version I can transfer purchases to, you'll have my $35 (or $50). Or if works well on WINE that might be a start.
Thanks.
First off, I have to at least brush back a little on this - given the royalties we pay and the amount of stuff it contains, a $35 student-discounted Basic Bundle (on which we actually have to pay the exact same royalties as the non-educational $50 version) is a pretty darn good deal. And you don't need a $600 iPhone to use the dictionary again if your iPhone dies, it'll run perfectly well on a $100 used iPod Touch.
But anyway, as far as our desktop plans, the current plan would actually have people running a desktop version of Pleco in an Android virtual machine on a desktop, which means it would work equally well on a Mac or on a PC but would not be integrated into the desktop that well (bit more awkward file sharing / copy-and-paste / etc than in a native desktop app). If that proved successful we might then consider developing a separate desktop version that was specifically optimized around desktops / written to run on a desktop OS, but I'm still very wary about the prospects for a desktop version in general - there are something like half a dozen excellent free offline flashcard programs on desktops, plus a zillion paid and web-based ones, there are online and offline dictionaries, free document readers built right into people's web browsers... we may be able to offer a better integrated package than any of those, but it's still an uphill battle to get people to pay anything for desktop Chinese dictionary software at this point. (even getting them to pay for mobile software is often a stretch, as you yourself demonstrate)
But anyway, as far as our desktop plans, the current plan would actually have people running a desktop version of Pleco in an Android virtual machine on a desktop, which means it would work equally well on a Mac or on a PC but would not be integrated into the desktop that well (bit more awkward file sharing / copy-and-paste / etc than in a native desktop app). If that proved successful we might then consider developing a separate desktop version that was specifically optimized around desktops / written to run on a desktop OS, but I'm still very wary about the prospects for a desktop version in general - there are something like half a dozen excellent free offline flashcard programs on desktops, plus a zillion paid and web-based ones, there are online and offline dictionaries, free document readers built right into people's web browsers... we may be able to offer a better integrated package than any of those, but it's still an uphill battle to get people to pay anything for desktop Chinese dictionary software at this point. (even getting them to pay for mobile software is often a stretch, as you yourself demonstrate)
Having used Pleco for a few weeks now in the iPhone 4 (<3), it's changed my views a bit about a desktop version. Selecting characters on a touchscreen then cycling through the dictionaries is much better than mousing over, in my opinion. I'd love a way to sync Pleco flashcards with my desktop for surreptitious use at work, but there are acceptable, if somewhat inconvenient, alternatives like Anki.
Running the Android mobile version in a virtual machine for the desktop definitely seems to be the right workaround/move to me. Though a Pleco fanatic, my thinking about the desktop version has changed: I'll probably stick with with my present desktop solutions (Anki, Perapera-kun), and purchase another license when I get a tablet for better and more portable Chinese article/book/etc. reading.
And to the gentleman who feels Pleco is expensive at $50, I'd counter that it was a great value when I purchased the WinMo (non-complete) version at $150. I've studied Chinese for nearly 10 years now, and after the endless hours of flipping through multiple dictionaries (E-C, C-E, C-C) just trying to pin down the real meaning of a word, or looking up words by 部首， or carrying flash cards around, or gazing in despair at a block of digital Chinese text... well, I'm happy those days are over.
Running the Android mobile version in a virtual machine for the desktop definitely seems to be the right workaround/move to me. Though a Pleco fanatic, my thinking about the desktop version has changed: I'll probably stick with with my present desktop solutions (Anki, Perapera-kun), and purchase another license when I get a tablet for better and more portable Chinese article/book/etc. reading.
And to the gentleman who feels Pleco is expensive at $50, I'd counter that it was a great value when I purchased the WinMo (non-complete) version at $150. I've studied Chinese for nearly 10 years now, and after the endless hours of flipping through multiple dictionaries (E-C, C-E, C-C) just trying to pin down the real meaning of a word, or looking up words by 部首， or carrying flash cards around, or gazing in despair at a block of digital Chinese text... well, I'm happy those days are over.
radioman
状元
With regard to Pleco at home, I use Pleco on the iPhone for flashcards/dictionaries and on my iPad for the reader. That goes for at home and anywhere else.
Some comments on flashcards.
Flashcards, in my unwavering opinion, should be with you at all times so all those hours in a day, no matter where you are, you can use them. Coupled with decent earbuds to keep out the outside world, I figure I increase my study time by about 3X, and my overall flexibility on where and when I can study is improved immeasurably (basically, I c
an study anywhere - in a taxi, in line buying tickets, at home, etc.) .
I have Macbook Pro but do not bother using it except to back up my cards (and to initially organize them).
Investment? I figure I have thousands of hours wrapped up, from class to self study, from traveling, books, etc. The hardware and software to support the flashcards/dictionaries is a small percentage at best, but the efficiency benefits are great.
Some comments on flashcards.
Flashcards, in my unwavering opinion, should be with you at all times so all those hours in a day, no matter where you are, you can use them. Coupled with decent earbuds to keep out the outside world, I figure I increase my study time by about 3X, and my overall flexibility on where and when I can study is improved immeasurably (basically, I c
an study anywhere - in a taxi, in line buying tickets, at home, etc.) .
I have Macbook Pro but do not bother using it except to back up my cards (and to initially organize them).
Investment? I figure I have thousands of hours wrapped up, from class to self study, from traveling, books, etc. The hardware and software to support the flashcards/dictionaries is a small percentage at best, but the efficiency benefits are great.
Yeah, getting software/books is the cheapest part of learning the language. Even good smartphone is like 1-2 months worth of classes most. And using paper dictionaries is very frustrating, it takes ages to find some words. And you can get stuck for a long time trying to decipher and count strokes
Dear Mr Love,
Thanks for the quick response. I get your point about the iPod Touch.
Another way to phrase what I meant:
If the desktop version can complement the mobile version -- so a user can access the same dictionaries and other features on both -- then even a student like me wouldn't be able to resist paying for it.
I agree, a standalone desktop version might not generate much cash. But someone like me would definitely pay for the convenience of having same capabilities on two devices -- one portable, and one at home. And someone like me is just more comfortable spending money on something that works on a computer, instead of just on a mobile device strictly controlled by Apple. (It does help you're making an Android version.)
Anyway, either way, I'll earmark some cash for a package. I know paying $50 for a great dictionary like Pleco is a relative deal, but some of us don't have $50 to spend on anything unless it's food or shelter. So I just meant, when Pleco Desktop comes out, I guess I'll consider it as essential as food or shelter, and finally fork over the money, and eat ramen noodles for an extra couple of weeks...
Thanks for the quick response. I get your point about the iPod Touch.
Another way to phrase what I meant:
If the desktop version can complement the mobile version -- so a user can access the same dictionaries and other features on both -- then even a student like me wouldn't be able to resist paying for it.
I agree, a standalone desktop version might not generate much cash. But someone like me would definitely pay for the convenience of having same capabilities on two devices -- one portable, and one at home. And someone like me is just more comfortable spending money on something that works on a computer, instead of just on a mobile device strictly controlled by Apple. (It does help you're making an Android version.)
Anyway, either way, I'll earmark some cash for a package. I know paying $50 for a great dictionary like Pleco is a relative deal, but some of us don't have $50 to spend on anything unless it's food or shelter. So I just meant, when Pleco Desktop comes out, I guess I'll consider it as essential as food or shelter, and finally fork over the money, and eat ramen noodles for an extra couple of weeks...
adro said:
That's a big part of the justification for an Android version, actually - we need a fallback in the event that Apple gets into trouble (or that we get into trouble with them). But having that version also work on desktops is certainly an added advantage, and seeing how it actually would sell would be quite informative; we're certainly not against the idea of a full native desktop version, we just want to make sure it's a worthwhile use of resources.
mikelove said:
Ok, this is an amazing idea. If there were some interface that could be used so that you could use your iphone/mobile touchscreen to input characters via WiFi that would be so useful. It would also enable you to test you hanzi skills in flashcards. Not only would this be great for Chinese learners but I definitely see how some native Chinese speakers might enjoy this feature.
There are several similar applications such as airmouse in the iphone app store which allow users to use the iphone as a cursor and input text on their mac/pc , but I think the Pleco handwriting program would be way more kickass.
Also, this might be in another thread but how about a web app? At least for the flash cards?(I love how Pleco does it)
andrewjr8 said:
It's an exciting prospect, certainly - both more accurate and easier to control than the Apple Trackpad Handwriting solution.
andrewjr8 said:
It's been thought about a lot - very competitive market, though, it would be tough to charge anything for it given how many free online Chinese dictionaries there are. We are at least exploring online flashcard backup / sync for a future release, though.
radioman said:
Yeah, it had a pretty nice UI too as I recall - tough to get that sort of thing to work reliably and fast when you're going over WiFi, though, which is all you can do on iPhone at least, so it'd be a not insignificant amount of work.
Actually, given how nice our handwriting engine is it might make sense to just package that up as an OS X app (we've got a license for it on that too, we're only using for desktop-hosted iPhone development at the moment) - a drop-in replacement for Apple's trackpad handwriting system, but more accurate and with two-finger clear and three-finger stop-input gestures. In fact, we even have our OCR license on OS X for the same reason - are there any decent Chinese OCR apps for OS X now or would that be worth exploring too?
While I'm on this theme - how would people feel if we offered a native desktop version of Pleco on OS X but not on Windows? While WM-desktop Windows and iPhone-OSX both overlap significantly, since WM is based on 10+-year-old Windows UI controls, a desktop port of our WM software would look rather ugly / outdated, while an OS X port of our iPhone software would be a gorgeous Cocoa-based Mac app - in either case I think the quick-and-dirty Android recompile should be our first foray into desktops, after (6?) years of waiting we need to release something and that's the easiest possible way to get to that something, but if that's successful and people are still buying Macs in a year or two it might be a logical next step.
character
状元
Readiris Corporate 12 Asian is available for the Mac; I think it's a leading OCR package.mikelove said:
Can I get in on the beta?
You would think Apple won the PC/Mac war given how many Macs there are on campus here. If you target PlecOS X at academia, it could do quite well.But I think the real answer as far as which platform to develop for is Flash. :lol:
radioman
状元
Dont know how other people think but since I use OS X I would use big time as long as it was fast and easy.
On the topic of OCR, there are packages like that mentioned. Adobe Acrobat is another. The issue is that they are expensive and require processing, importing, etc.
The other day I took a picture of a crumpled piece of paper on the wall. Poor pix and bad contrast. It was one of those things where there was a announcement of work to be done in the building. Well, I let Pleco have at it, and it got about 70 percent. I was quite impressed. I don't think any of the other Programs could have done better.
My thought is that It is much more valuable to me to have Pleco be able to read pictures of things, snapshots, PDFs or anything that you can extract resolution from the screen, and then OCR on the fly. Rather than trying to use it to read live pix for a few characteers, I know live can be useful, but usually I'm trying to digest more than a few characters at a time.
You could then have it so that if the document is really clear, the interface would present itself more or less like like the document reader for all intents and purposes. Otherwise you would have some sort of interface like HWR for accuracy that are more challenged.
Not sure how much sense that might make but that's my thought.
EDIT: transmatch.blogspot.com shows my "embeddedness" to Mac at this point - I might be a little biased. But the market numbers show Apple and Mac doing quite well.
On the topic of OCR, there are packages like that mentioned. Adobe Acrobat is another. The issue is that they are expensive and require processing, importing, etc.
The other day I took a picture of a crumpled piece of paper on the wall. Poor pix and bad contrast. It was one of those things where there was a announcement of work to be done in the building. Well, I let Pleco have at it, and it got about 70 percent. I was quite impressed. I don't think any of the other Programs could have done better.
My thought is that It is much more valuable to me to have Pleco be able to read pictures of things, snapshots, PDFs or anything that you can extract resolution from the screen, and then OCR on the fly. Rather than trying to use it to read live pix for a few characteers, I know live can be useful, but usually I'm trying to digest more than a few characters at a time.
You could then have it so that if the document is really clear, the interface would present itself more or less like like the document reader for all intents and purposes. Otherwise you would have some sort of interface like HWR for accuracy that are more challenged.
Not sure how much sense that might make but that's my thought.
EDIT: transmatch.blogspot.com shows my "embeddedness" to Mac at this point - I might be a little biased. But the market numbers show Apple and Mac doing quite well.
character said:
Looks pretty good, though since they're charging ~10x what we are, we might be able to offer a simpler / cheaper OCR app at a price point Mac users would be happier with - even without all the fancy document management features, a $30 or $40 Chinese OCR app on Mac seems like it could generate a lot of interest. It's a shame that there's no autofocus in the cameras they build into Macs, though I guess that could be fixed with a high-quality USB webcam (if any still exist...)
character said:
Should be possible, yeah - the only closed beta we've ever done is on iPhone and that's purely due to the no-unapproved-apps problem, we're planing to make the Android beta open to all comers and likewise for future any desktop version.
radioman said:
Which is why the quick-and-dirty "app"-like OCR system might make sense.
radioman said:
It's a pretty spectacular algorithm, especially given its tiny storage / RAM / processor footprint - beats the pants off of a lot of the desktop-based Chinese OCR algorithms we've tried.
radioman said:
Well we certainly do plan to keep expanding on the still image capture mode - I think live OCR is a better "hook," and less likely to disappoint people accuracy-wise (still image OCR can sometimes give you a totally mis-recognized document, and that's an easy recipe for a 1-star review), but we licensed the OCR system originally not even knowing if we'd be able to video with it, so still capture has been / should continue to be part of our plans.
radioman said:
We're waiting to see how consistent the OCR system's match accuracy statistics are (in the forthcoming update that's adding them) - changing the interface based on accuracy might make sense, but at some point it may be easier to just re-take the photo with better light / straighter angle / etc.
numble said:
No way - it may be a necessary evil on smartphones, but with a full keyboard with which to enter one's billing info and an incredibly easy installation process there just isn't enough benefit to justify giving Apple a 30% cut of a very expensive app.
If I thought the market for desktop Chinese dictionary apps was large and lucrative enough that we had to worry about someone getting to it ahead of us, we'd already have a desktop version of Pleco - I still see Pleco Desktop more as an interesting little side product / useful companion to our mobile app than as a crucial part of our business. (particularly with Wenlin 4 rumored to be just around the corner...)
mikelove said:
Is there some restriction to selling it both on your site and on the store? They seem to plan to sell CDs of iLife in retail and the apps separately on their App Store themselves. You could sell it for a 30% premium on the App Store if possible.
I think there are some benefits users would find in the App Store, such as the simplified installation, and how it is easy to find a list of Apps that deal with Chinese.
numble said:
It's just not worth it; if the restrictions were a bit lighter, if - say - we could submit an update and have it go live immediately instead of having to wait for them to review it, that might make it more palatable, but as-is I'm not inclined to give away any more control over our distribution than is absolutely necessary.