Some ideas from a hardcore user

[gabor]

Some of this could have been posted in the bug report topic, some in the feature request topic, but new topics have been posted with less reasons, I just thought it would be easier for Mike to reply to my requests if they are not scattered.

I am truly a hardcore Pleco user, it is THE reason why I bought an iPad (2). I use it (Pleco) up to 10 hrs a day. I have created over 10.000 user dictionary entries, and I am planning to add many more. I have read many books in the Reader and OCR'd several hundreds of pages. During the usage for over a year I have collected some ideas, on how to improve the app, and also some bugs, some of which have been fixed already (I obviously won't mention those here). I am not entirely happy with the Flashcards app, so I haven't used it much yet, but I plan to, when it gets updated. All in all I am a very with Pleco, all of these are just ideas for improvement, even if Pleco never would get updated (which I doubt) I would still happily use it. Some of the bugs I found long ago, I was simply lazy to write, for several I also found ways around, so they did not occur often. I'll try to report bugs quicker in the future. Anyway, here we go:

1. IDEA: USER DICTIONARIES, this one I promised to Mike long ago. The entire screen for editing user dictionary entries should be reworked a little, especially on the iPad, since there is a lot of screen real estate. First of all I don't think that every field (Simp. Trad. PY. Def.) has to open up a new empty screen, most of the operations should be done in the very same screen. Allow the users to add a few dictionary symbols would be great as well (such as ①②③④⑤⑥⑦⑧⑨⑩ⓐⓑⓒⓓ ❶❷❸❹❺❻❼❽❾❿ ▷｜～→ ◆○■⇒ etc.). It is also currently not possible to add character variations to dictionary entries manually (e.g. using a slash /). Or consider the situation of adding an entirely new word to the user dictionary (not found in any other dictionaries in PLeco). Go ahead and try to create an entry of, for example 显扬圣教论. Without knowing the traditional characters by heart, you have to check one by one and edit one by one, same goes for pronunciation. In Wenlin (sorry for bring it up) for example this is made a lot easier, both traditional (or simplified) characters and pinyin are added to the entry automatically. If there are ambiguities, Pleco could mark these (e.g. with color) and offer the alternatives. All these data are anyway in Pleco's database, as it can be found in the character details screen. If one mistakenly added the entry to the wrong user dictionary, it is quite difficult to move it to another user dictionary, maybe the dictionary selection should be done only after clicking on the Save button, using a pop-up window (only in case more than one User Dictionary exists of course).

2. BUG: When editing a user dictionary entry, clicking on Cancel brings up a dialogue window, clicking on Switch Language on the other hand does not, all entered data is lost in an instant.

3. IDEA: Its good that the Reader has bookmarking function, but if the character size is set to a smaller number, over hundred characters appear on the screen, at least on the iPad. Even though one has created a bookmark it can take quite a while to find the correct spot in the document. It would be lovely if one could first select a word (or a sentence), then create the bookmark and Pleco would create the bookmark using the selected characters as Bookmark title and upon loading that bookmark automatically select the same text again. I know this would mean rewriting quite some code, but the bookmark function would become endlessly more usable. Not mentioning that if one changes the Font Size in the Settings, then the screen upon loading the bookmark can look entirely different. I guess Pleco currently simply saves the position of the top line of the documents. I guess this is good enough on the iPhone, but I think we need something better on the iPad.

4. IDEA: When pasting data from the clipboard into the new dictionary entry screen (e.g. the Definition field), the Paste button appears exactly above the button for going back to the last screen (btw. this button is mistakenly labelled as Reader instead of Back). Many times I mistakenly clicked the only slightly hanging out "Reader" (Back) button.

5. BUG: In Dictionary mode, if the keyboard is left open and one clicks on a word, for example in the Guifan Dictionary, the popup appears out of the visible screen area, one has to then manually close the keyboard and click on the character again. In such case Pleco should close the keyboard automatically.

6. BUG: User dictionary entries are often sorted erratically, I can't figure out why.

7. BUG: If one opens the user dictionary entry editing screen through the Document File Reader, it is impossible to delete user entries, although a pop-up dialogues appears for confirmation as usual. It is only possible to delete user dictionary entries from the Dictionary screen.

8. IDEA: When editing dictionary entries empty lines in the character screen or in the pinyin field should be deleted automatically. I often copy the pinyin and the traditional characters from another dictionary, this way always an extra empty line is copied as well, which has to be deleted manually.

9. BUG: When pasting the pinyin (WITH TONE MARKS) into the pinyin field of a user entry, it gets saved, but the entry can not be found through pinyin search. One has to open the entry for editing (at this moment Pleco converts the tone marks into numbers) and save again. Only now can the entry be found through searching for pinyin.

10. BUG: Undo button in HWR does not do anything.

11. IDEA: would it be possible to add word frequency data to Pleco? It would help a lot also in the Document File Reader to recognize words. Currently Pleco simply selects the next possible recognized "word" (existing dictionary entry). Very often this is an obscure and terribly rare word. I faintly remember that Pleco for Windows Mobile worked somewhat different in this regard, if one continued pressing the next word arrow, it jumped back and also showed another possible word separation. 的历史 gets separated as 的历 (dìlì: v.p. 〈wr.〉 ①fresh ②brilliant) and 史 instead of 的 历史 (lìshǐ: n. history; past records).

12. BUG: pinyin tone numbers above the keyboard react very slowly, both when editing entries, but same in the Flashcards Test. Also they disappear when splitting the keyboard into two. With the keyboard being splitter one closes the keyboard and clicks into the text again, the keyboard reappears, also the pinyin numbers do, on the bottom of the screen far below the keyboard.

13. BUG: If Pleco was closed, then after launching one goes to the Reader and clicks on a word (which is in the user dictionary), then on the Arrow "button" in the upper left corner, then on the editing dictionary entry button (the Pen), then Pleco immediately crashes. If one has already edited one entry through the Dictionary screen, then this behavior does not occur anymore.

14. IDEA: If checking the character details of a character, e.g. 聊 and clicking one of its components in "Chars-Components", e.g. 耳, then many hundreds of characters appear which contain this component. I don't recognize how this list is sorted, it is practically impossible to really find anything in it.

15. IDEA: In Document Reader it is possible to anchor the Popup Reader at the bottom of the screen, this should be also possible in the Web Browser in Live Mode.

16. BUG: Sometimes when reading a long document in the Document File Reader, upon reaching the end of it, a few lines hang out, to the bottom of the screen. Only through changing the screen orientation can these lines be made visible. But even then the text reaches the very bottom of the screen, when selecting the word, the popup reader (anchored to the bottom) pushes the text up a few lines, upon deselecting it jumps back to the bottom again. I think Pleco should allow the document the be scrolled all the way down, so that the last line of the text appears in the upper part of the screen.

17. BUG: Punctuation should not be the first character in a line, Wenlin automatically handles this, Pleco should as well.

18. BUG: When reading long documents in the Document File Reader, using only the "Next Word" Arrow in the right lower corner (which I often do), sometimes after a long time the selection suddenly jumps many pages. Then I have to manually find my way back in the document to my actual position. This bug has nothing to do with the loaded document or some strange characters or the encoding of the file. It happens practically in every document after long enough time. If I now and then deselect the current selection and select another word, then the bug does not appear. Only after using the Next Word Arrow for a long time.

19. IDEA: Changing the font size should be possible from the Reader, one currently has to switch to Settings-Reader-Change the Font Size-go back to Reader-close the document-reopen the document.

20. IDEA: I'd love to set up my own icons in the Reader, adding buttons most importantly for "Edit dictionary entry".

21. IDEA: "Open In…" button in the File Manager. Currently it is only possible to Move a file to another app through emailing it (e.g. to myself) and open the attachment.

22. IDEA: Dropbox support, I believe Dropbox offers API for this, tons of apps have Dropbox support already, some of them even have support for syncing (GoodReader).

23: IDEA: Flashcards should "Prompt for" Characters or Pinyin based on "Score Ranges". Same goes for what it should "Show" previously as question.

24: IDEA: OCR should support PDF, or at least numbered images with a "Next Image" button. Dropbox support would be also great here, copying files to the iPad is really, well… &$%&"§$%!

25: IDEA: the width of the Entry List vs. Entry Display could be adjustable by touching and holding the line that divides them.

So much for now, if you need screenshots of certain bugs, I will send them soon.

Sorry for the long post!

 

[mikelove]

Thanks! Lots of good ideas here.

1. IDEA: USER DICTIONARIES, this one I promised to Mike long ago. The entire screen for editing user dictionary entries should be reworked a little, especially on the iPad, since there is a lot of screen real estate. First of all I don't think that every field (Simp. Trad. PY. Def.) has to open up a new empty screen, most of the operations should be done in the very same screen. Allow the users to add a few dictionary symbols would be great as well (such as ①②③④⑤⑥⑦⑧⑨⑩ⓐⓑⓒⓓ ❶❷❸❹❺❻❼❽❾❿ ▷｜～→ ◆○■⇒ etc.). It is also currently not possible to add character variations to dictionary entries manually (e.g. using a slash /). Or consider the situation of adding an entirely new word to the user dictionary (not found in any other dictionaries in PLeco). Go ahead and try to create an entry of, for example 显扬圣教论. Without knowing the traditional characters by heart, you have to check one by one and edit one by one, same goes for pronunciation. In Wenlin (sorry for bring it up) for example this is made a lot easier, both traditional (or simplified) characters and pinyin are added to the entry automatically. If there are ambiguities, Pleco could mark these (e.g. with color) and offer the alternatives. All these data are anyway in Pleco's database, as it can be found in the character details screen. If one mistakenly added the entry to the wrong user dictionary, it is quite difficult to move it to another user dictionary, maybe the dictionary selection should be done only after clicking on the Save button, using a pop-up window (only in case more than one User Dictionary exists of course).

Rich-text editing and automatic Pinyin/traditional generation are both on our to-do list; Wenlin actually doesn't seem to give you the option to resolve ambiguities in the former, oddly enough, but it does in the latter and I think we'd try to do both.

2. BUG: When editing a user dictionary entry, clicking on Cancel brings up a dialogue window, clicking on Switch Language on the other hand does not, all entered data is lost in an instant.

Good point, thanks!

3. IDEA: Its good that the Reader has bookmarking function, but if the character size is set to a smaller number, over hundred characters appear on the screen, at least on the iPad. Even though one has created a bookmark it can take quite a while to find the correct spot in the document. It would be lovely if one could first select a word (or a sentence), then create the bookmark and Pleco would create the bookmark using the selected characters as Bookmark title and upon loading that bookmark automatically select the same text again. I know this would mean rewriting quite some code, but the bookmark function would become endlessly more usable. Not mentioning that if one changes the Font Size in the Settings, then the screen upon loading the bookmark can look entirely different. I guess Pleco currently simply saves the position of the top line of the documents. I guess this is good enough on the iPhone, but I think we need something better on the iPad.

Another thing we've had a number of requests for - the trickiest thing about it is actually the interface; how do we cram another button into the toolbars to allow you to bookmark the currently selected text?

4. IDEA: When pasting data from the clipboard into the new dictionary entry screen (e.g. the Definition field), the Paste button appears exactly above the button for going back to the last screen (btw. this button is mistakenly labelled as Reader instead of Back). Many times I mistakenly clicked the only slightly hanging out "Reader" (Back) button.

That's actually all done on Apple's end, I'm afraid - all we could theoretically do is rearrange the screen so that the editable area no longer appears right below the top bar, but the Paste button is appearing there because their text edit field code puts it there and there's no way for us to override it.

5. BUG: In Dictionary mode, if the keyboard is left open and one clicks on a word, for example in the Guifan Dictionary, the popup appears out of the visible screen area, one has to then manually close the keyboard and click on the character again. In such case Pleco should close the keyboard automatically.

Actually the plan on that is simply to let the "bubble" show up to the left or right of text on iPad, rather than having to be positioned above or below it; that way we can keep the bubble sensibly positioned on the screen in cases like this.

6. BUG: User dictionary entries are often sorted erratically, I can't figure out why.

Could you provide some examples of this erratic sorting?

7. BUG: If one opens the user dictionary entry editing screen through the Document File Reader, it is impossible to delete user entries, although a pop-up dialogues appears for confirmation as usual. It is only possible to delete user dictionary entries from the Dictionary screen.

Might be that it's lost its connection to the main dictionary search screen (which is actually where all of the changes are processed) - we'll take a look, thanks.

8. IDEA: When editing dictionary entries empty lines in the character screen or in the pinyin field should be deleted automatically. I often copy the pinyin and the traditional characters from another dictionary, this way always an extra empty line is copied as well, which has to be deleted manually.

Good one, thanks.

9. BUG: When pasting the pinyin (WITH TONE MARKS) into the pinyin field of a user entry, it gets saved, but the entry can not be found through pinyin search. One has to open the entry for editing (at this moment Pleco converts the tone marks into numbers) and save again. Only now can the entry be found through searching for pinyin.

Hmm, that wasn't actually a scenario we designed around - where are you getting this tone-marked Pinyin from?

10. BUG: Undo button in HWR does not do anything.

It only applies to writing - draw a few strokes and then tap Undo and it will remove the most recently drawn one.

11. IDEA: would it be possible to add word frequency data to Pleco? It would help a lot also in the Document File Reader to recognize words. Currently Pleco simply selects the next possible recognized "word" (existing dictionary entry). Very often this is an obscure and terribly rare word. I faintly remember that Pleco for Windows Mobile worked somewhat different in this regard, if one continued pressing the next word arrow, it jumped back and also showed another possible word separation. 的历史 gets separated as 的历 (dìlì: v.p. 〈wr.〉 ①fresh ②brilliant) and 史 instead of 的 历史 (lìshǐ: n. history; past records).

We are adding it in 2.3 to use in sorting search results, but what you're describing is actually a text segmentation system, which requires a lot more than just a frequency list. (and is generally a very thorny thing to do for Chinese) That WM behavior is gettable now, though - just tap on the |<- arrow button to shrink the highlighted area, then tap on -> to advance to the next word.

12. BUG: pinyin tone numbers above the keyboard react very slowly, both when editing entries, but same in the Flashcards Test.

We've been tracking this for a while, though I believe you're the first person to post about it - anyway it's a consequence of the way Apple's system deals with stray touches just outside of the keyboard, and we'll be dealing with it in 2.3 by switching to the new system Apple added for officially attaching stuff to the top of keyboards. (one of a number of improvements that were waiting for us to drop support for iOS 3)

13. BUG: If Pleco was closed, then after launching one goes to the Reader and clicks on a word (which is in the user dictionary), then on the Arrow "button" in the upper left corner, then on the editing dictionary entry button (the Pen), then Pleco immediately crashes. If one has already edited one entry through the Dictionary screen, then this behavior does not occur anymore.

Probably related to #7.

14. IDEA: If checking the character details of a character, e.g. 聊 and clicking one of its components in "Chars-Components", e.g. 耳, then many hundreds of characters appear which contain this component. I don't recognize how this list is sorted, it is practically impossible to really find anything in it.

It's sorted by radical - we're not quite sure how else to sort it, Pinyin seems like it's totally unrelated to the character (only useful if you already know the character you're looking for, in which case why would you be getting to it by this screen?) so frequency may be the best bet.

15. IDEA: In Document Reader it is possible to anchor the Popup Reader at the bottom of the screen, this should be also possible in the Web Browser in Live Mode.

Sadly not possible at the moment - we're only able to support it in the regular document reader because we can artificially pad the bottom of a document with white space so that it will scroll up to put the last line of text above the popup bubble. In web pages it's not really possible for us to add a similar block of white space below a page. So the only way to fix this would be to make the reader bubble permanently visible and then shrink the web browser to only take up the space above it - we can't do it temporarily because the page would have to tediously re-flow every time you open or close the reader.

16. BUG: Sometimes when reading a long document in the Document File Reader, upon reaching the end of it, a few lines hang out, to the bottom of the screen. Only through changing the screen orientation can these lines be made visible. But even then the text reaches the very bottom of the screen, when selecting the word, the popup reader (anchored to the bottom) pushes the text up a few lines, upon deselecting it jumps back to the bottom again. I think Pleco should allow the document the be scrolled all the way down, so that the last line of the text appears in the upper part of the screen.

Not quite sure if I follow the first part of this - so the lines can't be seen at all without rotating the screen? What about if you close the reader bubble?

17. BUG: Punctuation should not be the first character in a line, Wenlin automatically handles this, Pleco should as well.

This one I'm not sure about - it's not that it's difficult to handle (it isn't), but is it really better to have random white spaces at the end of lines than punctuation at the start of them?

18. BUG: When reading long documents in the Document File Reader, using only the "Next Word" Arrow in the right lower corner (which I often do), sometimes after a long time the selection suddenly jumps many pages. Then I have to manually find my way back in the document to my actual position. This bug has nothing to do with the loaded document or some strange characters or the encoding of the file. It happens practically in every document after long enough time. If I now and then deselect the current selection and select another word, then the bug does not appear. Only after using the Next Word Arrow for a long time.

Might have something to do with the sliding "window" of text that we keep in memory at any given time - the system re-centers it around your current position when you bring up the reader bubble but I'm not sure if it keeps checking / updating it as you scroll around. To be honest, we really didn't design the bubble to be used to read along a document continuously, in fact we rather consciously intended it not to be used for that - we're worried it might become kind of a crutch and keep people from reading the words that they do know (and thus strengthening those all-important mental connections by that recall). But if people are going to use it that way anyway then it ought to work without any bugs at least.

19. IDEA: Changing the font size should be possible from the Reader, one currently has to switch to Settings-Reader-Change the Font Size-go back to Reader-close the document-reopen the document.

That should be coming when we redesign its UI around EPUB - reader should be getting a lot of attention in 2.4 along with flashcards.

20. IDEA: I'd love to set up my own icons in the Reader, adding buttons most importantly for "Edit dictionary entry".

So you'd want that icon in the top toolbar with the popup bubble visible?

21. IDEA: "Open In…" button in the File Manager. Currently it is only possible to Move a file to another app through emailing it (e.g. to myself) and open the attachment.

Very good idea, thanks! (only reason that's not already there is that we designed that screen before that option existed)

22. IDEA: Dropbox support, I believe Dropbox offers API for this, tons of apps have Dropbox support already, some of them even have support for syncing (GoodReader).

Possible, though I'm hesitant to spend a lot of time on Dropbox support given that Dropbox is inaccessible from China.

23: IDEA: Flashcards should "Prompt for" Characters or Pinyin based on "Score Ranges". Same goes for what it should "Show" previously as question.

They already do - set up Score-based subject selection with a Fill-in-the-blanks test and you'll see options for that.

24: IDEA: OCR should support PDF, or at least numbered images with a "Next Image" button. Dropbox support would be also great here, copying files to the iPad is really, well… &$%&"§$%!

Much-requested feature, yes

25: IDEA: the width of the Entry List vs. Entry Display could be adjustable by touching and holding the line that divides them.

That one's honestly not worth compromising other touch gestures for - the effective resolution when controlling an iPad with a finger is, if anything, lower than that when controlling a Palm Pilot with a stylus, and making the list finger-adjustable would mean complicating other gestures near that dividing line (taps on list items or on characters on the right side of definitions, e.g.).

Thanks for all the feedback!

 

[character]

Another thing we've had a number of requests for - the trickiest thing about it is actually the interface; how do we cram another button into the toolbars to allow you to bookmark the currently selected text?

Can you either:
1) add an option to the current "Copy | Search" options which appear when one has highlighted text?
2) treat selection as a mode and just show a Bookmark button instead of the other buttons while text is selected?

 

[mikelove]

1) add an option to the current "Copy | Search" options which appear when one has highlighted text?
2) treat selection as a mode and just show a Bookmark button instead of the other buttons while text is selected?

Excellent idea - crystallizes some of what we'd already been thinking regarding selection versus reading and how we might merge the two.

 

[gabor]

Thanks for the quick answer!

Rich-text editing and automatic Pinyin/traditional generation are both on our to-do list; Wenlin actually doesn't seem to give you the option to resolve ambiguities in the former, oddly enough, but it does in the latter and I think we'd try to do both.

Wow, that's great news. You think it might arrive with 2.3, 2.4 or only much later?

Another thing we've had a number of requests for - the trickiest thing about it is actually the interface; how do we cram another button into the toolbars to allow you to bookmark the currently selected text?

Well, on the iPad that would not be a big problem, there is ample space for one more button. When you hold down the create flashcard button (Plus sign) a menu pops up, the same could happen if you hold down the Copy to Clipboard button: press short for Copy to Clipboard, hold for popup with options to: a) copy to clipboard; b) bookmark selection; c) create new dictionary entry; d) search in Google/Baidu; e) ... This way you could also save the Create Dictionary Entry button I mentioned in another point.

That's actually all done on Apple's end, I'm afraid - all we could theoretically do is rearrange the screen so that the editable area no longer appears right below the top bar, but the Paste button is appearing there because their text edit field code puts it there and there's no way for us to override it.

As I mentioned in point 1, is it at all necessary, that the editing of the entries always brings up a new and empty screen? Could it not be done, at least on the iPad, in the same window?

6. BUG: User dictionary entries are often sorted erratically, I can't figure out why.

Could you provide some examples of this erratic sorting?

I could swear it was like that, I can not find any example now, I can only think that this happened before I realized that my entries cannot be found through pinyin search and I reopened and resaved them.

9. BUG: When pasting the pinyin (WITH TONE MARKS) into the pinyin field of a user entry, it gets saved, but the entry can not be found through pinyin search.

Hmm, that wasn't actually a scenario we designed around - where are you getting this tone-marked Pinyin from?

Well, simply from another dictionary. I'll give you an example. Let's say, I would like to create my own entry for a chengyu, although it can be found in some dictionaries, a certain translation I favor is missing. In this case, because there is currently no automatic traditional+pinyin generation, I simply select and copy these parts of another dictionary and paste them into my own entry, filling out only the Definition by hand.

10. BUG: Undo button in HWR does not do anything.

It only applies to writing - draw a few strokes and then tap Undo and it will remove the most recently drawn one.

I understand, I didn't notice that. Would it be possible, that if the character is chosen and thus entered into the text already the button would then change its function to a normal "undo", as it can be found in all the iOS keyboards? Let's say I selected some text and in HWR mode wrote a new character over it, then realize that I overwrote the wrong text. Currently I have to switch to another keyboard and hit undo there.

We are adding it in 2.3 to use in sorting search results, but what you're describing is actually a text segmentation system, which requires a lot more than just a frequency list. (and is generally a very thorny thing to do for Chinese) That WM behavior is gettable now, though - just tap on the |<- arrow button to shrink the highlighted area, then tap on -> to advance to the next word.

Yeah, you are right, text segmentation does require a lot more then word frequency, and I understand that you are not currently planning to add such functionality to Pleco. Do you plan other uses for this added new data? It might help a lot for choosing which words to add to the flashcards.

It's sorted by radical - we're not quite sure how else to sort it, Pinyin seems like it's totally unrelated to the character (only useful if you already know the character you're looking for, in which case why would you be getting to it by this screen?) so frequency may be the best bet.

I understand, even in that case there should be some way to make it easier to find a certain character, sometimes its just way too many to go through them all. I often search for obscure/rare characters, which are even too rare to be recognized by HWR. I usually find some similar character, choose a component which they share (NOT a fixed radical), and search based on that. The first idea which comes into my mind is the option of showing the results in that screen (Chars:Containing) in a grid. Although that might cause some dizziness at first sight, that might still be better then scrolling for minutes.

Sadly not possible at the moment - we're only able to support it in the regular document reader because we can artificially pad the bottom of a document with white space so that it will scroll up to put the last line of text above the popup bubble. In web pages it's not really possible for us to add a similar block of white space below a page.

Another solution would be: most of the time the bubble would be anchored at the bottom, and upon reaching the bottom of the page, the bubble would be anchored at the top. The most import point being that it is anchored most of the time, it really helps the eyes getting used to the fixed position of the appearing information.

16. BUG: Sometimes when reading a long document in the Document File Reader, upon reaching the end of it, a few lines hang out, to the bottom of the screen. Only through changing the screen orientation can these lines be made visible. But even then the text reaches the very bottom of the screen, when selecting the word, the popup reader (anchored to the bottom) pushes the text up a few lines, upon deselecting it jumps back to the bottom again. I think Pleco should allow the document the be scrolled all the way down, so that the last line of the text appears in the upper part of the screen.

Not quite sure if I follow the first part of this - so the lines can't be seen at all without rotating the screen? What about if you close the reader bubble?

Even with the reader bubble being closed some lines are hanging out to the bottom (not always, but it does happen sometimes). If I try to drag them up I can see them, but when I let go, they slip out of the screen again. Changing the orientation (rotating the screen) fixes it. I can film it if that helps

17. BUG: Punctuation should not be the first character in a line, Wenlin automatically handles this, Pleco should as well.

This one I'm not sure about - it's not that it's difficult to handle (it isn't), but is it really better to have random white spaces at the end of lines than punctuation at the start of them?

You can still make it an option in the Settings
It is simply the way that all punctuation is handled, not just in China.

To be honest, we really didn't design the bubble to be used to read along a document continuously, in fact we rather consciously intended it not to be used for that - we're worried it might become kind of a crutch and keep people from reading the words that they do know (and thus strengthening those all-important mental connections by that recall). But if people are going to use it that way anyway then it ought to work without any bugs at least.

Well, for me Pleco is from time to time not just a tool for learning and research but for urgent matters, such as reading an incoming letter as fast as possible, even if it contains far too many characters which are unknown to me. Selecting these characters one by one would actually require at least twice as much time as simply hitting one button.

20. IDEA: I'd love to set up my own icons in the Reader, adding buttons most importantly for "Edit dictionary entry".

So you'd want that icon in the top toolbar with the popup bubble visible?

Right, and only then of course, it does not have to be an entirely new button as I mentioned earlier just now, another button can be used with a popup menu on hold.

22. IDEA: Dropbox support, I believe Dropbox offers API for this, tons of apps have Dropbox support already, some of them even have support for syncing (GoodReader).

Possible, though I'm hesitant to spend a lot of time on Dropbox support given that Dropbox is inaccessible from China.

That is new to me, I am in China and I happily use dropbox. Without vee pee anne
The website loads slowly sometimes but the actuall app runs fast on my Windows PC, Mac and iPad.


I do have some new ideas just now, I'll write them down after lunch. I seriously hope I am not bothering you with this, and you don't get the impression that I am not happy with your wonderful product!!!

 

[gabor]

One more idea, which I probably mentioned earlier, but I didn't explain in detail. I often hold the iPad with two hands (e.g. for safety reasons), many games are designed to be held like this, Apple has introduced the split keyboard etc. I'd love to see the Document File Reader being a bit more usable like that. I'd love to have at least the option of moving the buttons from the top and bottom of the screen to the left and right of the screen, at least in horizontal layout. Reaching the New Flashcard button in the top row at the middle is virtually impossible while holding the iPad with two hands.

And a small bug I forgot to mention. In the Reader, popup bubble active, you press the magnifying glass icon it jumps to the Dictionary screen, to the entry of the selected word. If you now, without altering anything, go back to the Reader and press the magnifying glass icon AGAIN, then for some strange reason the dictionary jumps to the very first (alphabetic) entry. This happens only with user dictionary entries. If I delete the characters from the Dictionary input field (the search field), then it does not occur, only if the search term is already in that field when I press the magnifying glass in the Reader.

I think you were right about frequency data not necessarily helping for segmenting the text accurately, but I thought about it and came to the conclusion, that although it might still not be perfect that way, it still might be significantly better then not segmenting at all, and always just jumping to the next, longest possible dictionary entry (when pressing the Right Arrow in the Popup Bubble in the Reader). What do you think?

 

[mikelove]

Wow, that's great news. You think it might arrive with 2.3, 2.4 or only much later?

Automatic pinyin/traditional generation is probably a 2.4 thing - rich text editing I'm not sure, will be influenced a bit by what Apple announces next month at WWDC in terms of changes to the iPhone user interface APIs.

Well, on the iPad that would not be a big problem, there is ample space for one more button. When you hold down the create flashcard button (Plus sign) a menu pops up, the same could happen if you hold down the Copy to Clipboard button: press short for Copy to Clipboard, hold for popup with options to: a) copy to clipboard; b) bookmark selection; c) create new dictionary entry; d) search in Google/Baidu; e) ... This way you could also save the Create Dictionary Entry button I mentioned in another point.

True, but that's hard for new users to discover and we'd like to make this a more obvious and active part of the UI since it's a big and oft-requested improvement.

As I mentioned in point 1, is it at all necessary, that the editing of the entries always brings up a new and empty screen? Could it not be done, at least on the iPad, in the same window?

That would be very tricky with our full-screen handwriting interface - it might be possible if we didn't support that and required you to use the iPhone's built-in keyboard, though.

I could swear it was like that, I can not find any example now, I can only think that this happened before I realized that my entries cannot be found through pinyin search and I reopened and resaved them.

OK, well if it happens again let me know, though the Pinyin syllables could be to blame.

Well, simply from another dictionary. I'll give you an example. Let's say, I would like to create my own entry for a chengyu, although it can be found in some dictionaries, a certain translation I favor is missing. In this case, because there is currently no automatic traditional+pinyin generation, I simply select and copy these parts of another dictionary and paste them into my own entry, filling out only the Definition by hand.

Ah, that makes sense. Though once we add the ability to add annotations to dictionary entries it should get less important.

I understand, I didn't notice that. Would it be possible, that if the character is chosen and thus entered into the text already the button would then change its function to a normal "undo", as it can be found in all the iOS keyboards? Let's say I selected some text and in HWR mode wrote a new character over it, then realize that I overwrote the wrong text. Currently I have to switch to another keyboard and hit undo there.

Maybe, we'll have to check the APIs and see if there's a way for our keyboard to tap into that function.

Yeah, you are right, text segmentation does require a lot more then word frequency, and I understand that you are not currently planning to add such functionality to Pleco. Do you plan other uses for this added new data? It might help a lot for choosing which words to add to the flashcards.

We're not really confident enough in that yet - we cobbled it together from a little corpus analysis on our own end plus some open-source frequency lists, so while it's good enough for some simple tasks like figuring out which word for "beautiful" is the most common one or what the most common word is for the pronunciation "jishi," it's not really good enough for something like generating a flashcard vocabulary list yet.

I understand, even in that case there should be some way to make it easier to find a certain character, sometimes its just way too many to go through them all. I often search for obscure/rare characters, which are even too rare to be recognized by HWR. I usually find some similar character, choose a component which they share (NOT a fixed radical), and search based on that. The first idea which comes into my mind is the option of showing the results in that screen (Chars:Containing) in a grid. Although that might cause some dizziness at first sight, that might still be better then scrolling for minutes.

A grid might work - another idea would be to sort by number of strokes, or allow you to bring in a second component and combine them.

Another solution would be: most of the time the bubble would be anchored at the bottom, and upon reaching the bottom of the page, the bubble would be anchored at the top. The most import point being that it is anchored most of the time, it really helps the eyes getting used to the fixed position of the appearing information.

Actually on the iPad I really find that I prefer having the bubble show up right next to the text - it's a lot more work to keep flickering your eyes down to the bottom every time. But moving the bubble to the top when you reach the bottom seems like it might be a good workaround on this, depending on the page.

Even with the reader bubble being closed some lines are hanging out to the bottom (not always, but it does happen sometimes). If I try to drag them up I can see them, but when I let go, they slip out of the screen again. Changing the orientation (rotating the screen) fixes it. I can film it if that helps

The main thing is reproducing it, actually - does this happen consistently with a particular document that you wouldn't mind sending us? (along with your current font size / bold / margin settings)

You can still make it an option in the Settings
It is simply the way that all punctuation is handled, not just in China.

True, no harm adding an option given how many we already have. Just not something we've had a lot of requests for...

Well, for me Pleco is from time to time not just a tool for learning and research but for urgent matters, such as reading an incoming letter as fast as possible, even if it contains far too many characters which are unknown to me. Selecting these characters one by one would actually require at least twice as much time as simply hitting one button.

True, and I suppose it's still better for your Chinese skills than giving up altogether and using Google Translate

Right, and only then of course, it does not have to be an entirely new button as I mentioned earlier just now, another button can be used with a popup menu on hold.

Well those are a good way to bury commands for advanced users, but definitely not something we can make heavy use of since if we do nobody will ever find them without reading the manual.

That is new to me, I am in China and I happily use dropbox. Without vee pee anne
The website loads slowly sometimes but the actuall app runs fast on my Windows PC, Mac and iPad.

Well that's odd, my perception was that it was rarely if ever available. Perhaps they've come to some sort of understanding.

I do have some new ideas just now, I'll write them down after lunch. I seriously hope I am not bothering you with this, and you don't get the impression that I am not happy with your wonderful product!!!

Oh not at all, we appreciate the detailed feedback!

One more idea, which I probably mentioned earlier, but I didn't explain in detail. I often hold the iPad with two hands (e.g. for safety reasons), many games are designed to be held like this, Apple has introduced the split keyboard etc. I'd love to see the Document File Reader being a bit more usable like that. I'd love to have at least the option of moving the buttons from the top and bottom of the screen to the left and right of the screen, at least in horizontal layout. Reaching the New Flashcard button in the top row at the middle is virtually impossible while holding the iPad with two hands.

Already exists, kind of - Settings / Reader / Tap side to move. Enable that and you can tap anywhere in the left side of the page (outside the bubble) to move to the previous word or right side to move to the next word. <-| and |-> buttons still need the toolbar, though.

And a small bug I forgot to mention. In the Reader, popup bubble active, you press the magnifying glass icon it jumps to the Dictionary screen, to the entry of the selected word. If you now, without altering anything, go back to the Reader and press the magnifying glass icon AGAIN, then for some strange reason the dictionary jumps to the very first (alphabetic) entry. This happens only with user dictionary entries. If I delete the characters from the Dictionary input field (the search field), then it does not occur, only if the search term is already in that field when I press the magnifying glass in the Reader.

Hmm... we'll investigate, thanks.

I think you were right about frequency data not necessarily helping for segmenting the text accurately, but I thought about it and came to the conclusion, that although it might still not be perfect that way, it still might be significantly better then not segmenting at all, and always just jumping to the next, longest possible dictionary entry (when pressing the Right Arrow in the Popup Bubble in the Reader). What do you think?

The real devil there is in the grammar parsing - have to be able to deal intelligently with collocations, among other things. There's no simple way to just stick frequency data into the reader and get results that are improved enough to make up for the less obvious user control. We're looking into licensing a text segmenter from somewhere but the best one we've found so far only work on Android.

 

[gabor]

Automatic pinyin/traditional generation is probably a 2.4 thing - rich text editing I'm not sure, will be influenced a bit by what Apple announces next month at WWDC in terms of changes to the iPhone user interface APIs.

2.4, that would be great! If you are working on it, or in general on the user dictionary entry editing interface, please remember some of my other tips as well (e.g. button for moving own entries to another user dictionary). Please also make the pinyin/traditional generation available for already existing entries, this could be a good way of adding them to entries created earlier without them. Exactly because its such a fuss, I have created a lot of entries without adding traditional yet, I was exactly waiting for such a function.

As I mentioned in point 1, is it at all necessary, that the editing of the entries always brings up a new and empty screen? Could it not be done, at least on the iPad, in the same window?

That would be very tricky with our full-screen handwriting interface - it might be possible if we didn't support that and required you to use the iPhone's built-in keyboard, though.

I see, well, in most cases that would do, at least for me. Mostly I first search for an entry anyway, to see if it is already in any dictionary. If not, then I use the create user entry button. The characters I entered earlier appear in the appropriate field, and if pinyin/traditional are generated automatically, I anyway just need to type the definition, for which I don't really need the HWR interface.

Ah, that makes sense. Though once we add the ability to add annotations to dictionary entries it should get less important.

Annotations? OK, didn't know about that coming. Will they be exportable? Exporting my own entries is very important for me, so it should work with annotated entries as well.

(Chars:Containing) in a grid

A grid might work - another idea would be to sort by number of strokes, or allow you to bring in a second component and combine them.

Number of strokes or second component would be great. Or again, by frequency

Even with the reader bubble being closed some lines are hanging out to the bottom (not always, but it does happen sometimes). If I try to drag them up I can see them, but when I let go, they slip out of the screen again. Changing the orientation (rotating the screen) fixes it. I can film it if that helps

The main thing is reproducing it, actually - does this happen consistently with a particular document that you wouldn't mind sending us? (along with your current font size / bold / margin settings)

It happens in practically every document, with any font size, non-bold, wider margin, when I reach the bottom. But only if I reach the bottom with the popup bubble constantly open (by only using the next item button, yes, I know) :-D

Well, for me Pleco is from time to time not just a tool for learning and research but for urgent matters, such as reading an incoming letter as fast as possible, even if it contains far too many characters which are unknown to me. Selecting these characters one by one would actually require at least twice as much time as simply hitting one button.

True, and I suppose it's still better for your Chinese skills than giving up altogether and using Google Translate

Google Translate is actually one of the worst tools for Chinese automatic translation I have ever tried. So, all in all, yes, it is FAR better to use Pleco, even if it takes some time. And on the other hand, I guess not everybody has the same learning curve. On chinese-forums.com I met quite some people who enjoy reading texts far above their current level.

Already exists, kind of - Settings / Reader / Tap side to move. Enable that and you can tap anywhere in the left side of the page (outside the bubble) to move to the previous word or right side to move to the next word. <-| and |-> buttons still need the toolbar, though.

Yeah, I recently noticed that and switched it on, but I still consider it might not be enough. I use other buttons as well, not just the "next/previous item" button with the popup bubble open And using "Tap side to move" doesn't work in every environment within Pleco with the popup bubble open, just in the Reader. Anyway, this is not something of major importance, maybe many users put down their iPad when using it, or are comfortable of holding it with one hand and operating with the other. I just thought there might be some others out there as well, who often hold it with both hands and are still trying to use it at the same time ;-)

Thank you for your time! I am looking forward to the long-expected "Spring-update"
Oh, btw. can the pricing of the coming new dictionaries be known already? Will it be the same for new users and existing Full Bundle users?

 

[gabor]

Oh, and one more thing:
in the Dictionary screen, there is the edit/create user entry button (a pen). Could it be possible to change the way that button works, so that I could choose (tap and hold), if I want to edit the currently displayed user entry, or create a new one? Simply tapping would work as it does now: edit if its a user entry in an unlocked dictionary, create new if its a locked dictionary. Tap and hold would bring up small menu, a) edit b) create new.

I know of the current method of opening the entry for editing and then tapping the New Entry button, but that deletes the characters and gives me a completely empty form! I find myself constantly locking and unlocking dictionaries as a workaround, that can be quite tiring.

update: I just noticed there is already a function when tapping and holding that button: creating a new flashcard! I find that a bit confusing, but it might be just me, I would still prefer a small popup menu, updated as follows a) edit entry; b) create new entry; c) create new flashcard.

update 2: and another thing, you wrote pinyin/traditional generation, please don't forget that sometimes its exactly the simplified that needs to be generated, if the entered term/the term found in a document etc. is already in tradtitional and one would like to create an entry.

 

[mikelove]

2.4, that would be great! If you are working on it, or in general on the user dictionary entry editing interface, please remember some of my other tips as well (e.g. button for moving own entries to another user dictionary). Please also make the pinyin/traditional generation available for already existing entries, this could be a good way of adding them to entries created earlier without them. Exactly because its such a fuss, I have created a lot of entries without adding traditional yet, I was exactly waiting for such a function.

We'll see what we can do, but some of that automated stuff may require a bit of manual intervention (e.g. exporting and then re-importing).

Annotations? OK, didn't know about that coming. Will they be exportable? Exporting my own entries is very important for me, so it should work with annotated entries as well.

Oh yes, we make it a rule never to have any user-generated data be non-exportable. (just common courtesy really, people shouldn't be stuck using your app to access their data for all eternity - what if we're no longer in business in 30 years?)

Number of strokes or second component would be great. Or again, by frequency

It's actually by radical-stroke now, so within a given radical they should be sorted by number of strokes, but that may not be 100%.

It happens in practically every document, with any font size, non-bold, wider margin, when I reach the bottom. But only if I reach the bottom with the popup bubble constantly open (by only using the next item button, yes, I know)

OK, we probably just weren't looking for the right problem then.

On chinese-forums.com I met quite some people who enjoy reading texts far above their current level.

That's the funnest thing about the reader to me - you're still parsing the document yourself, but you've got a little help to go a bit above your normal vocabulary level.

Yeah, I recently noticed that and switched it on, but I still consider it might not be enough. I use other buttons as well, not just the "next/previous item" button with the popup bubble open And using "Tap side to move" doesn't work in every environment within Pleco with the popup bubble open, just in the Reader. Anyway, this is not something of major importance, maybe many users put down their iPad when using it, or are comfortable of holding it with one hand and operating with the other. I just thought there might be some others out there as well, who often hold it with both hands and are still trying to use it at the same time

Well we can certainly keep working on those ergonomics - maybe some simple gestures or something.

Oh, btw. can the pricing of the coming new dictionaries be known already? Will it be the same for new users and existing Full Bundle users?

Haven't even announced all of those dictionaries yet. Pricing would be the same - Apple won't let us do otherwise - but we do plan to offer some "dictionary upgrade bundles" that will let you get more than one new dictionary together at a lower price without re-purchasing handwriting / flashcards / etc.

in the Dictionary screen, there is the edit/create user entry button (a pen). Could it be possible to change the way that button works, so that I could choose (tap and hold), if I want to edit the currently displayed user entry, or create a new one? Simply tapping would work as it does now: edit if its a user entry in an unlocked dictionary, create new if its a locked dictionary. Tap and hold would bring up small menu, a) edit b) create new.

We're probably removing that button from the main screen altogether, actually, at least as a default - this stuff will now be done through a separate "Manage Dictionary Entries" screen. The shortcut to create a new dictionary entry from the main screen will most likely appear somewhere in a list of imperfectly-matched search results.

update 2: and another thing, you wrote pinyin/traditional generation, please don't forget that sometimes its exactly the simplified that needs to be generated, if the entered term/the term found in a document etc. is already in tradtitional and one would like to create an entry.

Well yes, but that demonstrates one of the problems with this - how do we know which set you want to generate? It's not always clear whether a given string of characters are traditional or simplified.

 

[gabor]

We'll see what we can do, but some of that automated stuff may require a bit of manual intervention (e.g. exporting and then re-importing).

Oh, that is no problem at all! People with special needs, sometimes have to work a bit

Oh yes, we make it a rule never to have any user-generated data be non-exportable.

That's great! By the way, is their a way to import a user-created dictionary to Wenlin? Or should I ask the Wenlin guys about this?

The shortcut to create a new dictionary entry from the main screen will most likely appear somewhere in a list of imperfectly-matched search results.

That sounds like a great idea! Just please remember what I said, even if their IS already such an entry, and even if its in a user dictionary, one might want to create another one, either in another dictionary, or with another pronunciation etc.

Well yes, but that demonstrates one of the problems with this - how do we know which set you want to generate? It's not always clear whether a given string of characters are traditional or simplified.

Well, it doesn't even have to be that automatic, there could be simply buttons on that screen for editing entries, next to each field, tapping those would generate the content of that given field. This is anyway a type of process which cannot be fully automatic, as we already spoke of variant characters/pronunciations. But that's just an idea, maybe you'll come up with a better one.

I have a new idea about bookmarks though, and I think many people would like this one. Why not make all the bookmarks, of all the documents in the reader be reachable, without the necessity of opening a certain one of them. Either by creating an entirely new database for all the bookmarks, but then you have to consider updating it, when a file is moved or deleted. Or simply keep it the current way, having hidden files storing this data, and either when launching Pleco, or opening the Reader, or opening this new "All Bookmarks" screen all the data from this separate bookmark files would be merged into a single screen, showing the name of the files, as if they were folders, and tapping on them would show their own set of bookmarks. This would be also a great way to jump back and forth between files, and certain positions in them, which currently takes quite some time. If you have opened a document and tap on the Bookmarks, instead of showing only the bookmarks for that single document, you could tap on a button in the upper left corner (where usually the Back... or "one level up" button is located), for going one level "higher", where you would again land in this new "All Bookmarks" screen, being able to easily jump to a certain position of a certain OTHER file.

Another guy asked on the forum about the last position of a document, you told him the file opens automatically at the last position, when you reopen it. While this is nice, I think also this could be a bit better, it would be nice to have a bookmark created for the position when closing the file, like the "auto-save" function of so many games. The file still could open at the last position, but later you could still find it easily, and it would blend nicely with the above mentioned new function which I proposed, this way you could not only jump to a certain bookmark in another file, but also to the latest position. And another thing which would be nice: the bookmarks could show when they were created. At least the auto-saved one, in its name.

So much for now. Have a nice day!

 

[mikelove]

That's great! By the way, is their a way to import a user-created dictionary to Wenlin? Or should I ask the Wenlin guys about this?

I believe so, but I don't know the exact procedure.

That sounds like a great idea! Just please remember what I said, even if their IS already such an entry, and even if its in a user dictionary, one might want to create another one, either in another dictionary, or with another pronunciation etc.

I think a combination of a "can't find this word - create entry" and a hidden-by-default "clone to user dictionary" button would probably cover this nicely, at least if we paired them with a dedicated "new entry" button in the separate dictionary entry management screen.

Well, it doesn't even have to be that automatic, there could be simply buttons on that screen for editing entries, next to each field, tapping those would generate the content of that given field. This is anyway a type of process which cannot be fully automatic, as we already spoke of variant characters/pronunciations. But that's just an idea, maybe you'll come up with a better one.

Something like that, yes. Or we can just guess and let people sort it out manually in the few cases where an automated algorithm is likely to get it wrong. (the infamous 乾, e.g.)

I have a new idea about bookmarks though, and I think many people would like this one. Why not make all the bookmarks, of all the documents in the reader be reachable, without the necessity of opening a certain one of them. Either by creating an entirely new database for all the bookmarks, but then you have to consider updating it, when a file is moved or deleted. Or simply keep it the current way, having hidden files storing this data, and either when launching Pleco, or opening the Reader, or opening this new "All Bookmarks" screen all the data from this separate bookmark files would be merged into a single screen, showing the name of the files, as if they were folders, and tapping on them would show their own set of bookmarks. This would be also a great way to jump back and forth between files, and certain positions in them, which currently takes quite some time. If you have opened a document and tap on the Bookmarks, instead of showing only the bookmarks for that single document, you could tap on a button in the upper left corner (where usually the Back... or "one level up" button is located), for going one level "higher", where you would again land in this new "All Bookmarks" screen, being able to easily jump to a certain position of a certain OTHER file.

We've had one or two people mention this - it's doable (we do have a single file on Android) but it's quite a bit of engineering work for something that we're not sure that a lot of people would use, and it would make it harder to share a document and its painstakingly-developed bookmarks with another user without sharing your entire bookmark database.

Another guy asked on the forum about the last position of a document, you told him the file opens automatically at the last position, when you reopen it. While this is nice, I think also this could be a bit better, it would be nice to have a bookmark created for the position when closing the file, like the "auto-save" function of so many games. The file still could open at the last position, but later you could still find it easily, and it would blend nicely with the above mentioned new function which I proposed, this way you could not only jump to a certain bookmark in another file, but also to the latest position. And another thing which would be nice: the bookmarks could show when they were created. At least the auto-saved one, in its name.

If you jumped to a recent file we'd certainly want to support returning to the last position in it too, but I'm not sure whether that might be better accomplished through a simple "recent files" list.