Beta 3 Feedback Thread

[frank.thome]

Dear Michael

Thanks for your swift reply. Could you kindly list all entries that Pleco makes into the registry. (including Pleco 1 & Pleco 2)

Thank you in advance
Frank

 

[neilperks]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply. I notice you say that the audio files should go in the "/Palm/Launcher" directory, however my handheld is a Toshiba e800 ppc, not a palm. Does this information still apply ? I currently have 2 files in the main "ppc/Program Files/Pleco" directory (PlecoDict-WM4 and PlecoHWR) all the rest, including the audio files, are on the SD card under "sd/Pleco" directory. Do I need to create another directory for the audio files?

Regarding the stylus presuure issue, this actually applies to all strokes, including the initial stroke. Often I need to try 2 or 3 times to get it to recognise the initial stroke, after this it is a bit better, but still requires a very firm pressure. Under Pleco 1 all that was required was a very light pressure.

Thanks

Neil

 

[mikelove]

frank.thome - for 1.0 the entries are all under HKLM\Software\Pleco Software\PlecoDict, for 2.0 they're under HKLM\Software\Pleco Software\Pleco Dictionary. So just delete the Pleco Software key and that should clear out everything.

neilperks - oops, sorry, somehow I managed to think you were using the Palm version for that part and still think you were using the PPC version for the stylus issue. Anyway, that directory structure looks fine, and if Pleco's finding other files in that directory it should certainly be able to find the audio ones. Might be some sort of WM2003 bug, we've done some testing on that along with WM5/6 but given all of the other bugs that cropped up at the last minute with Beta 3 I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was one more - has anyone gotten audio working successfully with WM2003?

The pressure issue is still very confusing, though - do you still have Pleco 1.0 installed? Perhaps there's been some change in the way your PDA's display works in general. Are you running any other software on your PDA that captures stylus input, like a general-purpose Chinese handwriting recognizer or drawing program? Do other programs on your PDA still respond to a lighter touch?

 

[neilperks]

Thanks Mike, regarding the "no sound" issue I appreciate it takes time to sort out all the bugs, so I'm patient . Is there anyone else still using WM2003SE . By the way I noticed the two options for installing were WM4 and WM5/6. I assume I was right to use WM4?

With regard to the stylus pressure issue, I still have both Pleco 1.0 installed as well as Pleco 2 beta. If I switch to Pleco 1.0 I barely have to touch the screen for it to work easily and smoothly, but if I switch to Pleco 2.0, no matter how hard the pressure i can never get it to work first time. So at the moment I do a "dummy" swipe and the a second one which generally gets it working, but requires much greater pressure. Subsequent strokes are ok but still require heavy pressure.

The only other software I use which can require the stylus is d-ear, used for inputting Chinese characters into programmes (the character input recogniser part I rarely use), I have used this software for a long time with no problems on other programmes including Pleco 1.0. All other programmes are ok and require just the lightest touch.

Hope this helps

Neil

 

[neilperks]

Hi Mike,

Just to say having returned home I tried installing the new "Experimental PPC Audio + HWR Fix" files you posted yesterday, and it seems to have worked magic with my main problems. The audio is now working well and also I don't know what you did with the handwriting recognition software, but this is also now working well with little pressure, similar to Pleco 1.0. Both problems solved, thanks; the main facilities of the program are now working well on ppc.

Thanks

Neil

 

[daniu]

Hi!

Since PD2B3 seams really to work now some commentaries ...

I am absolutely amazed by the Information Window. I like the stroke order and I really appreciate the Compunds window. Great! The latter should be checked once more. I am not sure how to do that but right now I cannot scroll to the right so I can almost not see the meaning of the words ...

Handwriting recognition works very nicely now - just miss the full screen ...
In Handwriting recognition I found this 3 checkboxes to select SC TC and Rare. It would be great if you could actually choose after input because right now (especially for Rare) you have to write the character again if you do not know that it actually belongs to a category that was turned off. Do you get what I mean?
BTW: what is Rare? Is there a definition?

Just found something that seems to be new - not really disturbing: the horizontal separation line has 2 holes now - why? Just realized that it is much thinner - but could still be thinner 1 pixel would do in my opinion - a PDA screen is always too small ...

All this are not really mistakes so I guess it will do for 2.1

Sorry - cannot find real mistakes in PD2B3 - no crashes and I do not use flashcards yet.

Just went briefly into flashcards and found one: when I go into manage flashcards and press the plus I cannot exit that window ... am I making a mistake? It is actually the same mistake that I am having regulary in PD1 which could not be solved. The problem there is that I often times cannot exit the flashcards to get back to the dictionary. In PD2 I really hope this problem will not come up again without solution...
I can also not enter a new category. The small window does not close again ...
Do I get it right that I still cannot transfer my cards from PD1 with scores so far?

best regards
Daniel

 

[mikelove]

neilperks - glad to hear it! I'm still not sure how the change we made would have affected pressure-sensitivity but maybe the OS was picking up on the double-click flag (the thing that was causing the other problems) and adjusting its stylus capture because of that - wouldn't be too surprising with all of the ways HTC has hacked Windows Mobile.

daniu - glad you like the Info screen. And yeah, the compounds are using a highly-experimental dialog version of our custom word list control which still needs a lot of polishing. Full-screen handwriting will be back soon, don't worry. Good point about letting you change the boxes after the fact, shouldn't be too difficult to implement that and well worth it. "Rare" characters are actually a designation made by the handwriting recognition software and not by us, but I think it refers to the first versus second plane of GB-2312 for simplified characters at least.

The bars on the horizontal separator are actually deliberate, they've been on Palm since 1.0 - we think it makes it a bit clearer to the user that this is something they can tap and drag. 1 pixel is a bit too small of a landing spot for some users so I think it'll have to stay with the current width. The glitch in Manage Flashcards is just a bit of unimplemented dialog code - we're aware of all of these un-exitable dialogs and they should all be fixed soon.

And yes, there's no way to move scores over yet, though we will be releasing a converter for that along with the finished version of 2.0.

 

[chinacry]

Thanks, beta 3 performs great and is much more stable. The audio and stroke rec. is great too after applying the fix. Laomashitu sound is working on mine.

There does seem to be one bug though. When I click on a charac. and enter the info screen, tapping "ok" or using my phones "ok" screen, will completely unload pleco. I can't find a way to get out of the info screen without killing pleco. Info screen info isn't showing up properly either. This is with beta 3(a,x), audio/stroke fix.

I'm still hoping for a click on the character to either allow you to play sound or have the mandarin pinyin show up by default on the Info screen. Currently, it show cantonese That would make the pure chinese dictionaries easier to use for those of us that often come by characters we don't recognize. Please mention if there is another way to get to the pronunciation of an unrecognized character without going through multiple steps.

I previously brought up the idea of highlighting multiple characters and letting pleco read them out and I do see you points on the negative side of this feature. But, it would be a simple way to practice listening for tones and a very easy way to here the pron. of a character. Obviously, many characters have multiple tones, but they are often limited to one sound when in a compound, or definition. Beyond that, we generally all have to study the different sounds and uses of characters like 不， which change tones dependant on the character following it.

All in all, the current product is going in an awesome direction. Thanks for your hard work.



Device: HTC TYTN,WM6

 

[Zoide]

What's the ETA for Beta 4?

 

[TaiwanSwedey]

I wonder if it would be possible to change the default setting in the character information window regarging pinyin definition. Right now the default for me is Cantonese so if I want to see Mandarin pinyin definition I have to use the scroll down menu and change to Mandarin. This of course is especially important when using the non pinyin dictionaries and your only choice to see pinyin is the information window.

 

[ipsi]

I think the ETA is early Feb for Beta 4... not sure though.

As to the pinyin char info, I think it remembers the changes I've made on Palm, so I just change it once and then always see it.

 

[mikelove]

chinacry - glad to hear it! We haven't seen any of this unloading bug yet - we'll try it on a TyTN here and see if we can dig up anything. As ipsi says, the Info screen is supposed to remember the last set of fields selected; it doesn't do it yet but will soon and that will let you put the Mandarin on there by default. Reading out characters like you describe probably isn't going to happen anytime soon, though we'd certainly consider adding some new audio-based features like this depending on how the feedback for our first audio-equipped release works.

Zoide/ipsi - yeah, hopefully around then but we're not releasing another major beta update until we've got every feature completed and reasonably polished.

 

[mferrare]

Hi, I wanted to post my experiences with 2.0b3a on my HTC Touch Dual. The dual doesn't have any CE-star or equivalent on it (yet) (for what that's worth).

I seem to have gotten the install done OK as per a previous post in the 'Detailed Install Instructions' topic. I'm having these issues:
* If I tap on the input field on the main screen no cursor appears. However I can type in input using the soft keyboard
* I can't use my dual's keyboard to input english words or pinyin. Only numbers appear. This was a problem on the old version of Pleco also.
* Sound does not work. I need to see other responses in this thread before complaining more loudly however.
* The character recogniser doesn't work. I can write a character but typing 'Recognise' freezes the app and I have to go to Settings and kill it.
* The stroke order feature also doesn't seem to work. When I press the 'play' button the number indicating the stroke flashes rapidly and nothing is drawn. I need to go to settings as above to kill this also.

This is my initial feedback so far. I like the new fonts and the presentation. Looking forward to using this.

Is there a preference or otherwise to loading CE-star? If I had it I could use PenPower to input chinese characters. I've read bad press about it but not sure what other chinese writing IMEs there are available to me.

Mark

 

[Dan_78cj5]

OK, I loaded up Pleco2Beta2 once, but never really played with it, so now that I loaded up Pleco2Beta3a I am really starting to get excited about things. Some feedback, sorry if these are not pd2b3a specific, or have been reported already (I tried to skim all the comments in this thread at least.

1) I LOVE the ability to set the pop-updefinitions to select and tap, this is a way cool and super useful function. While I have not used a Chinese-Chinese dictionary before I am really enjoying it and using the pop-up def to help me through the rough stops... BUT... The pop-up definition pulls from the same dictionary, so I often don't fully understand that definition either. It would be SUPER hlepful for a user like me on the verge of being able to use the Chinese0Chinese dictionary a lot, if I could set the pop-up dictionary to ABC, when using the GF dictionary. This way I can ease into using purely Chinese deinitions, knowing that I can quickly hit the pop-up to give me a short answer on words used in the definition that I'm not familiar with. Did that make sense? Bottom line, I'd like to be able t set the dictionary that the pop-up def uses to be different than the dictionary I am in for PD.

2) I didn't know the two holes in the line meant I could tap and drag... so I tapped and drug... now I can't get it back, its stuck and soft resets won't get it back. (I'm on a Palm Tungsten E, 320x320 square screen)

3) Along the same lines, I keep losig the HWR input below the bottom of the screen. I usually use a TX with the rectangle screen, so I am used to the set-up with the list on the right, and the HWR in the bottom all the time. I am doing this on the Tungsten E, but whenever I hit the keyboard button the HWR goes away and he keyboard dissapears below the screen. Nothing gets it back, switching the HWR to hidden, then back, still below the screen, soft reset, switching it to the right and left, still lost. Very frustrating.

4) Also LOVE the character info on a tap pop-up, super useful. Mine will not 'save' my settings, so everytime I open it I get the cantonese pronunciation, etc. I'd love to set these prefs and let them stay what I want every time.

5) Is there anyway you can set it to use the graphiti area to write in your characters? Seams like a waste of space. Especially on the TX. If I could use the graphiti area I could have more room ont he rest of the creen for definitions and the list. If not, when I hide the graphiti area (on the TX, not possible on the Tungsten E) I'd like to be able to put the list AND the HWR input on the right, HWR far right of the list. Anyway, looking for better use of space on the screen to include the graphiti input space.

6) No sound at all, but frankly I didn't much see the use for this. The first time I checked it out when I had pd2b2 loaded the sound seemed very mechanical because it selects the syllables seperately, so its not really a recording of the word. For example a two character word with two third tones pronounced two very prominant third tones, it didn't make the leading third a second tone, and it was clear that it was two sound bits jambed together, so it didn't even sound like 'a word'. I think this might be very useful to a beginner, but I think I'd rather save the space on my machine and not load up all the sound file. I'm not sure the sound is of much use to me, I know my tones are weak, but I can see what it should be from tones with pinyin marks. My problem is not knowing what the tones sound like, it is more often not being able to remember which tone a character is, or which pronunciation fo that character for the given combination.

Anyway, way cool - can't wait until its out final, this is a super useful tool. Chinese-chinese dictionary, all character definitions, stroke order, pop-up defs, reader, these tools are just what I need to help push me to the next level.

Thanks for the Great Product and Super responsiveness to your customers.

(sorry I have a problem with brevity)
Dan

 

[Dan_78cj5]

Loading problems?

OK, whe I load pd2beta3a I get te messge mentioned above that not all dictionaries or components were found/loaded. Also, when I completely* removed all files and reloaded, it already knows my preferences. I reloaded partly because I was trying to get my input selections to reset to 'factory' so I could find the HWR input pad which is still stuck 'below' the screen when I put it in the 'bottom' setting which should put it on the bottom 1/3 or 1/4 of my screen.

Is there a file I am missing when I deleted and reloaded pd? What's the name on the preferences file I need to delete?

Thanks,
Dan

 

[mikelove]

mferrare - I'm not sure about this keyboard issue, though given the amount of customization in our text handling code it makes sense that the system that translates numbers to letters wouldn't work very well - unfortunately I don't think we'll have numeric keypad input working until we release a WM Smartphone version (hopefully with 2.1). The recognizer issue is also confusing - did you install the handwriting recognizer library to a memory expansion card by any chance? If so, try putting it in main memory and see if that helps matters.

The other issues are things we know about, though - the input field cursor often goes missing, and sound and stroke order only work if you've paid to unlock them. CE-Star et al shouldn't really interfere with 2.0 at all, but if you Google around for Pocket PC Chinese input systems you should find a bunch of other options.

Dan_78cj5 - good catch on #1, the dictionary setting for that is supposed to be saved / restored independently of your selection in the main dictionary so I'm not sure why that isn't happening. (since popup dictionaries aren't even working on Pocket PC yet we haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this feature) With #2, you should actually be able to fix this by cleaning out Pleco's preferences; use FileZ or another preferences utility to clean out all of the preferences with creator code PLEN and that should get rid of the screwed-up sizing.

Haven't seen #3 before, we'll take a look - sounds like some layout calculation is overflowing or something like that. #4 is a widely-reported issue though mostly on Pocket PC, not sure why it's now happening on Palm too. #5 should be possible as you describe on the TX in the finished version (as it was in 1.0), but we decided long ago against using a painted-on Graffiti area for handwriting input since without seeing the strokes that you've drawn it's borderline impossible to draw a Chinese character accurately. Not sure why the audio isn't working in #6, but the syllable-by-syllable issue has been discussed here before; it actually only happens with words we don't have a dedicated recording for, if you try a common one like a1yi2 you'll hear it spoken correctly. We're planning to add a preference option to have it not play audio when it doesn't have an exact recording for a specific word, and with the finished version the audio database will be a lot larger (30,000+ words) so there should be a lot more words that are covered.

Thanks for all the feedback!

 

[Alexis]

Hi Mike,

Regarding 6 above (audio pronunciation), For words that don't have a full recording, could a set of rules be applied to "correct" the tones on the individual syllables?

For example:

When yi1 or bu4 is followed by a:
- first, second, or third, then make it a second tone.
- fourth or neutral tone, then make it a fourth tone.

When a third tone is followed by another third tone, then make it a second tone.
If a third tone is preceeded by a third tone that was altered to a second tone, then keep it as third tone.

These one may be a bit harder to implement depending on any variation of relative pitch between recordings of individual syllables.

I'll try to describ the following in pitch "levels", where:
- 1st tone is "level 5" pitch
- 2nd tone rises from 3 to 5
- 3rd tone drops from 2 to 1, with a sharp rise at the end to 4
- Half 3rd tone drops from 2 to 1 (and doesn't rise)
- 4th tone drops from 5 to 1

If a neutral tone is preceeded by a:
- 1st tone or 2nd tone, then make it a "level 3" (medium pitch) neutral tone
- 3rd tone, then make it a "level 4" (medium-high pitch) neutral tone
- 4th tone, then make it a "level 1" (low pitch) neutral tone
- neutral tone, then make it the same pitch as the preceeding neutral tone

If the third tone is immediately followed by another character, then use the "half third tone"
If the third tone is not immediately followed by another character, then make it a full third tone

I'm not sure how well words describe it, I could email a picture if that works better.

 

[Dan_78cj5]

Mike,

As always, thanks for your phenomenal customer service.

I'll stick with the same numbering in case that clarifies things:

1) OK, since you said you haven't got much feedback on the pop-up def, and I think it is the coolest function ever, here goes... I have discovered that there is a button in the bottom left corner that allows me to select the dictionary inside the pop-up (yeah!), but it is displaying as a blank white square. This is the function I asked for above (already there) but since it shows with a white square instead of the usual colored dictionary name squares, you can't see it and don't know its there. Fumbling arund 'in the dark' with my stylus I found it. Also the sound button in the pop-up def box does not work (though sound now works in the main dictionary with the sound button). There is also another white square button to the right of the add flashcard button - but it aparently does nothing. And finally in the pop-up def box, occasionally the definition words overlap the top quarter of the buttons, then leave the shadow of the part of the words that overlapped behind when ou change definitions or dictionaries making the box a bit messy and hard to read. If I close and come back the box is clean again.

2) Uh, just don't plan on messing with the sliding lines again until the final version.

3) I have no 'preferences' file in my FileZ that was created by PLEN, I have only Pleco Engine, Pleco Flashcard, and two files called PDUserE1200607... and PDUserC1200607... listed as created by PLEN. I deleted two other preference files created by 'pref' (lost a lot of other settings on the palm by doing that) and at least got out of the inpu screen stuck problem. I think what is happening, at least for part of this issue, is that when you slide the line past a certain point it switches the input pallet on the bottom to the abreviated imput bar (the one that allows full screen write mode which you already said isn't working yet) but then no matter where I touch the screen it thinks I am trying to write a character and turns off all other buttons and functions. I can't find a way to get out of this. I don't think that's the entire problem because when I drug the line to the very bottom I didn't even see the abbreviated full screen input bar, but it was still lost below screen or something. Anyway, fix for me is to not move the sliding lines again.

4) Character info in tap up still does not remember my settings, maybe you are trying to tell me I need to learn Cantonese pronunciation.

5) OK, played with this more on my PD 1.0 on the TX, actually found a better set-up. Now I put the list on full screen with the character HWR input on the right and the graphiti area hidden. I can see more in the list, when I select a definition the list hides so it is easier to read the definition, and although I am now doing most of my look up by HWR, if I need to write pinyin I tap open the graphiti box, then hide it back away. This way I get more use out of the list and can read the definition easier. Can't wait to put the final 2.0 on the TX and play with the additional screen space. (I intend to keep the beta on my old TE to play with while its still unstable, but keep my pd1.0 and current flashcards running on my main machine until the final 2.0 is out.)

6) My Bad, I never reloaded the sound files. Reloaded the new b3 sound files, sound works now (on the main screen from the button, but not in the pop-up defs from that button) and the first few words I tried all sounded really good, not seperate syllables.

7 [new one]) The button on the handwriting input bar that has an eraser with a black arrow has changed functionality. Previously (in 1.0) when I hit that key it erased the character to the left of the cursor, now it erases the right most character no matter where the cursor is. This is very frustrating, maybe just because I have built a habit, but it is important because if I hide the graphiti screen on a Palm TX I then don't have a quick and easy way to erase a single character (there's no backspace key, no graphiti area out to do the simple left stroke that backspaces, etc. So I end up erasing the whole input box, or erasing from the right until I get to the one I want. It would be nice to have the orignal functionality back for this key (in its original functionality it does what the key does now whenever the cursor is at the end, which is where it would b by default when you are inoputting a string of characters), or to have a backspace (note: a very different function from the current webpage like 'back' button) button as an option on the cmd bar.

Anyway, thanks again, this products is getting much more useful, and it was already my favorite piece of technology in the 1.0 version.

I really look forward to the combined effect of the Guifan dictionary and the pop-up def in a stable final version on my daily use machine tied to my flashcards - 加油！

Dan

 

[mikelove]

Alexis - I suppose we could do something like this, but since the single-syllable recordings are so slow / forced-sounding I don't think even in that case it would sound much like it's actually supposed to. And anyway, with 30,000 words just about any word that someone who hasn't learned tones well yet is likely to encounter is going to have a recording attached to it. At some point I'd love to get a full-fledged Text-to-Speech system working in there, so you could for example have it read a document / dialog / etc aloud to you (maybe even with two different voices for two different speakers, that would be super cool - who needs ChinesePod when you can listen to any text you want), but we're a ways away from that technology-wise and it would require a bunch of recordings (different duration, pitch, etc) for each syllable+tone combo in order to have the correct one to slot in to a particular place in a particular word/sentence.

Dan_78cj5 - on #1, we definitely need to do some debugging on that screen, yes - the white square for the dictionary button is largely because the system for creating those icons is getting changed heavily in Beta 4, the new Dictionary Manager screen will not only let you reorder/disable dictionaries but will also let you change the icon abbreviation and color. On #3, FileZ actually has a separate system for managing individual records in preferences databases - tap on the Close button in the main screen and it should take you back to a window with a "View Preferences" button. On #5, that makes a lot of sense - our Chinese handwriting recognizer actually does support Latin-alphabet input too, but the timing for that would be different enough that I suspect bringing out the Graffiti area would be faster, plus you'd end up getting a lot of false matches when you were trying to enter a very simple Chinese character. On #7, that sounds like a bug - it's definitely supposed to delete next to the cursor rather than from the end of the word.

 

[dom]

OK, here is my feedback on the beta, which i installed last week. I'm running on a Palm T3.

1. My biggest issue is that (text) input is now excruciatingly slow. In v1, i could write at a natural speed in the graffiti area, then pleco would auto-lookup after 0.75s as i told it to. In v2, I have the same setting, but it seems to lookup right away, which makes it ignore some of my input... is this an ignored preference problem of the type that others have been reporting, or something fundamentally different about the "search" field in v2?

2. the entries column shows only simplified chars even when "traditional" is selected.

3. It's nice that there's some control over the font size, but if you check "use large font in definition" but don't check "magnify headword", the characters show up in tiny font while the definition shows up in large font.

4. being able to make user-defined dictionaries is one of the reasons i'm eager for v2... (since makeplecodict doesn't work on macs or on XP.) i forget what was said before, will we have to wait for the final version for this? I am missing the adsotrans and my own custom dicts...