Pleco Desktop
- Thread starter james
- Start date
Jim - thanks for the detailed note. There certainly wasn't any deliberate attempt to deceive, we just bit off more than we can chew features-wise with 2.0 and iPhone and as usual everything is taking twice as long as we thought it would.
So let's put it this way. We still very much want to do a desktop version, we think it would be a lovely companion to our handheld software, but given how quickly the mobile software market is moving these days, we can no longer even guess when it will be ready or what other projects might end up having to take priority over it (perhaps even when we're already halfway through developing it). Our history the last few years has demonstrated the folly of trying to predict this stuff too far in advance.
This sentiment will likely be echoed in my next announcement email too, and on the regular website, and I hope it will at least keep anyone else from buying Pleco on the mistaken assumption that a desktop version is imminent. And I do apologize for that -I honestly had no idea so many people were still waiting for / feeling this strongly about a desktop version until this new discussion picked up, if I had known about that I would have tried to offer a clearer / more cautious estimate before we even started on the iPhone version.
(maybe I should just stop pre-announcing new platforms altogether - iPad / desktop / Android / webOS can all remain "under investigation" unles and until we announce a beta release, there's too much pressure / user frustration otherwise)
MALAILI - I appreciate the vote of confidence; hopefully the product will be worthy of your high expectations at whatever indeterminate point in the future we do release it.
FWIW, we actually have one cool little trick (completely original, AFAIK) we're playing around with that would at least considerably streamline the process of creating new flashcards on a desktop compared to the current system of manually importing them from text files, so if we get the kinks worked out in time, that may debut with the iPhone flashcard release (and follow soon on WM if people like it).
So let's put it this way. We still very much want to do a desktop version, we think it would be a lovely companion to our handheld software, but given how quickly the mobile software market is moving these days, we can no longer even guess when it will be ready or what other projects might end up having to take priority over it (perhaps even when we're already halfway through developing it). Our history the last few years has demonstrated the folly of trying to predict this stuff too far in advance.
This sentiment will likely be echoed in my next announcement email too, and on the regular website, and I hope it will at least keep anyone else from buying Pleco on the mistaken assumption that a desktop version is imminent. And I do apologize for that -I honestly had no idea so many people were still waiting for / feeling this strongly about a desktop version until this new discussion picked up, if I had known about that I would have tried to offer a clearer / more cautious estimate before we even started on the iPhone version.
(maybe I should just stop pre-announcing new platforms altogether - iPad / desktop / Android / webOS can all remain "under investigation" unles and until we announce a beta release, there's too much pressure / user frustration otherwise)
MALAILI - I appreciate the vote of confidence; hopefully the product will be worthy of your high expectations at whatever indeterminate point in the future we do release it.
FWIW, we actually have one cool little trick (completely original, AFAIK) we're playing around with that would at least considerably streamline the process of creating new flashcards on a desktop compared to the current system of manually importing them from text files, so if we get the kinks worked out in time, that may debut with the iPhone flashcard release (and follow soon on WM if people like it).
mike:
Yeah, I totally understand it. Hiring someone to do Polish version would eat most of profits. Maybe in the future, when pleco has lots of money [and it would be probably great to have your own dictionary at one day, to upgrade and translate]. Entering foreign markets that have pretty much zero software for learning Chinese could be a great idea, with more and more people learning that language. I hope that at least flashcard system allows all foreign languages [both input and display].
Version working on wine would be totally fine for desktop/tablet. I hope it's not very tricky, especially when it comes to multitouch/character recognising and camera access [for making photos and translating charactes in that - pleco can do that, right?].
Hmm... I also wonder how expensive will be that Zune Phone, could be a nice platform for Pleco, with Tegra chipset in it. But I really don't like the idea of devices without full keyboard and small screen.
Yeah, I totally understand it. Hiring someone to do Polish version would eat most of profits. Maybe in the future, when pleco has lots of money [and it would be probably great to have your own dictionary at one day, to upgrade and translate]. Entering foreign markets that have pretty much zero software for learning Chinese could be a great idea, with more and more people learning that language. I hope that at least flashcard system allows all foreign languages [both input and display].
Version working on wine would be totally fine for desktop/tablet. I hope it's not very tricky, especially when it comes to multitouch/character recognising and camera access [for making photos and translating charactes in that - pleco can do that, right?].
Hmm... I also wonder how expensive will be that Zune Phone, could be a nice platform for Pleco, with Tegra chipset in it. But I really don't like the idea of devices without full keyboard and small screen.
Multitouch on desktops is difficult at the moment - I believe Windows 7 is the only major desktop OS that supports it systemwide, OS X only seems to allow it on trackpads and I don't know of any standardized Linux multitouch programming interface.
We don't have camera text recognition capability - that's actually an almost entirely different kind of problem than Chinese handwriting recognition, and we don't think the technology is there yet to make it practical in Pleco. (even the technology existed, it's doubtful we could secure a license to it at a rate that would be compatible with the still-shrinking prices of mobile software)
Zune Phone I'm guessing will be running the consumer version of Windows Mobile 7 (assuming the rumors of two versions are accurate) - the question is how difficult it will be to port software from earlier versions of WM to WM7, but assuming Microsoft continues their long tradition of going out of their way to ensure backwards compatibility I imagine it would be pretty straightforward to get Pleco working on it.
We don't have camera text recognition capability - that's actually an almost entirely different kind of problem than Chinese handwriting recognition, and we don't think the technology is there yet to make it practical in Pleco. (even the technology existed, it's doubtful we could secure a license to it at a rate that would be compatible with the still-shrinking prices of mobile software)
Zune Phone I'm guessing will be running the consumer version of Windows Mobile 7 (assuming the rumors of two versions are accurate) - the question is how difficult it will be to port software from earlier versions of WM to WM7, but assuming Microsoft continues their long tradition of going out of their way to ensure backwards compatibility I imagine it would be pretty straightforward to get Pleco working on it.
When I began learning Chinese I bought Wenlin and some other desktop software and also used online stuff. But since Pleco 2.0 most of the time I use Pleco on my mobile device. Normally no more need for me to use Wenlin.
I just use Wenlin to write longer texts and to read small texts (on the desktop). Writing Chinese text with dictionary support like Wenlin offers is one of the small benefit that Wenlin has and Pleco has not. Another is Wenlin's frequency ranking of characters and words which also would be a nice feature for Pleco.
Anyway, small texts on the desktop I copy&paste and read it in Wenlin. Longer texts on desktop or Internet/Mail I copy&paste and read in in Pleco because it is much more convenient for me. In the meantime I also create new flashcards in Pleco on my mobile device (thanks to the Touchpal soft keyboard (SIP)).
If there would be a Desktop version of Pleco, maybe I will buy it. But I see the competition to all the other dektop and online stuff. And I think the new version of Wenlin is maybe also a big competitor to such a Pleco Desktop version. Probably I will buy it if it brings me some real benefit. But like Mike said: the desktop not allows handwriting (without additional new hardware). And I do not think that I will buy both: the Wenlin Update and Pleco Dektop...
My interesting in a desktop version of Pleco is so few compared to any further features on my mobile device.
From my point of view I would say:
We now waited more than a year patiently for the iPhone version with very few progress for the Windows Mobile version of Pleco. And there is so much cool stuff Pleco could do on a mobile device. For example sentences, better pronounciation and much other things. This list could be so long (look for example at corresponding forum category).
I do not want to wait longer for all of them just because of the desktop version. I understood the need for us to wait because of the iPhone version. I do not understand the need to wait because of a desktop version.
My suggestion: License cool new dictionaries, implement cool new stuff on iPhone and WM. Bring out a version 2.1, 2.2, 3.0 and maybe drop the Palm support because it slows any future progress (you gave us so many examples on that during the last year, no need to repeat it here).
Additionally I think there is a little need for some changes because of WM 6.5. This should be also of high priority. And I guess there well be much need of changes when WM 7.0 will come (that's why I hope it will not come too early, because it means many new problems for all WM users and developers. We are not yet over 6.5).
Finally, I think modern devices like iPhone/iPod Touch, HTC HD2 (with the new stylus), Acer S200 or even iPad and its competitors make not much need for Pleco on Desktop.
Mike, please give us some progress with real new benefit on our mobile devices before we have to go on waiting. Please do not let us wait again in this case because of any desktop version.
THX
Daniel
I just use Wenlin to write longer texts and to read small texts (on the desktop). Writing Chinese text with dictionary support like Wenlin offers is one of the small benefit that Wenlin has and Pleco has not. Another is Wenlin's frequency ranking of characters and words which also would be a nice feature for Pleco.
Anyway, small texts on the desktop I copy&paste and read it in Wenlin. Longer texts on desktop or Internet/Mail I copy&paste and read in in Pleco because it is much more convenient for me. In the meantime I also create new flashcards in Pleco on my mobile device (thanks to the Touchpal soft keyboard (SIP)).
If there would be a Desktop version of Pleco, maybe I will buy it. But I see the competition to all the other dektop and online stuff. And I think the new version of Wenlin is maybe also a big competitor to such a Pleco Desktop version. Probably I will buy it if it brings me some real benefit. But like Mike said: the desktop not allows handwriting (without additional new hardware). And I do not think that I will buy both: the Wenlin Update and Pleco Dektop...
My interesting in a desktop version of Pleco is so few compared to any further features on my mobile device.
From my point of view I would say:
We now waited more than a year patiently for the iPhone version with very few progress for the Windows Mobile version of Pleco. And there is so much cool stuff Pleco could do on a mobile device. For example sentences, better pronounciation and much other things. This list could be so long (look for example at corresponding forum category).
I do not want to wait longer for all of them just because of the desktop version. I understood the need for us to wait because of the iPhone version. I do not understand the need to wait because of a desktop version.
My suggestion: License cool new dictionaries, implement cool new stuff on iPhone and WM. Bring out a version 2.1, 2.2, 3.0 and maybe drop the Palm support because it slows any future progress (you gave us so many examples on that during the last year, no need to repeat it here).
Additionally I think there is a little need for some changes because of WM 6.5. This should be also of high priority. And I guess there well be much need of changes when WM 7.0 will come (that's why I hope it will not come too early, because it means many new problems for all WM users and developers. We are not yet over 6.5).
Finally, I think modern devices like iPhone/iPod Touch, HTC HD2 (with the new stylus), Acer S200 or even iPad and its competitors make not much need for Pleco on Desktop.
Mike, please give us some progress with real new benefit on our mobile devices before we have to go on waiting. Please do not let us wait again in this case because of any desktop version.
THX
Daniel
Thanks very much for offering an alternate / anti-desktop perspective here.
I have to take issue a bit with your statement that we haven't improved the WM version in the last year, though; last 6 months would be more accurate. We haven't done much since 2.0.3 came out in July, but at least in the first 6 months after 2.0 came out we added quite a lot of new features; user dictionary import / export, "limit unlearned' in flashcards, instant handwriting recognition, and Organize Flashcards among others. Not to mention two very useful new dictionaries, A Chinese-English and the ABC English-Chinese. And 2.0.(8?) is bringing among other things a much faster user dictionary search index, some nice systemwide search improvements (no spaces before Pinyin syllables that begin with vowels, relevance sorting for E-C fulltext), and some more improvements to the flashcard spacing algorithm.
I'm not inclined to go too crazy with WM6.5 updates because, #1, I view it as a very transitional release (even a year from now I doubt there'll be many new phones shipped with it), and #2, most of the issues people are having with WM6.5 are actually with manufacturers' specific implementations of it; HTC Windows Mobile and Samsung Windows Mobile are almost two different dialects at this point. We're certainly trying to fix WM6.5 bugs - we're probably going to bite the bullet and finally implement our own "fake" scrollbars so that we can trick all of these damn TouchWiz/TouchFlo/etc hacks into not screwing up handwriting recognition by interpreting strokes as scroll gestures - but actually trying to take advantage of WM6.5 "features" seems like kind of a waste of effort.
But if Microsoft's WM7 announcement blows everyone away - and I think it will, it's not an exaggeration to say that Microsoft's entire future in the consumer space (outside of video games) depends on it - that opens up all kinds of lovely possibilities for future Pleco Windows Mobile releases; I'd just rather invest a bit more in low-level engine improvements now and less in Windows-Mobile-specific ones with a new and maybe-not-entirely-backwards-compatible version of WM on the horizon.
I have to take issue a bit with your statement that we haven't improved the WM version in the last year, though; last 6 months would be more accurate. We haven't done much since 2.0.3 came out in July, but at least in the first 6 months after 2.0 came out we added quite a lot of new features; user dictionary import / export, "limit unlearned' in flashcards, instant handwriting recognition, and Organize Flashcards among others. Not to mention two very useful new dictionaries, A Chinese-English and the ABC English-Chinese. And 2.0.(8?) is bringing among other things a much faster user dictionary search index, some nice systemwide search improvements (no spaces before Pinyin syllables that begin with vowels, relevance sorting for E-C fulltext), and some more improvements to the flashcard spacing algorithm.
I'm not inclined to go too crazy with WM6.5 updates because, #1, I view it as a very transitional release (even a year from now I doubt there'll be many new phones shipped with it), and #2, most of the issues people are having with WM6.5 are actually with manufacturers' specific implementations of it; HTC Windows Mobile and Samsung Windows Mobile are almost two different dialects at this point. We're certainly trying to fix WM6.5 bugs - we're probably going to bite the bullet and finally implement our own "fake" scrollbars so that we can trick all of these damn TouchWiz/TouchFlo/etc hacks into not screwing up handwriting recognition by interpreting strokes as scroll gestures - but actually trying to take advantage of WM6.5 "features" seems like kind of a waste of effort.
But if Microsoft's WM7 announcement blows everyone away - and I think it will, it's not an exaggeration to say that Microsoft's entire future in the consumer space (outside of video games) depends on it - that opens up all kinds of lovely possibilities for future Pleco Windows Mobile releases; I'd just rather invest a bit more in low-level engine improvements now and less in Windows-Mobile-specific ones with a new and maybe-not-entirely-backwards-compatible version of WM on the horizon.
mikelove said:
You are right. I did not want to reduce your improvements of last the year. But I think without the need to launch the iPhone version the progress of Pleco itself would be probably much faster. I am afraid that the same thing would happen if you start with the desktop version.
Talking about WM 6.5: I just meant to fix the biggest issues we were already discussing in Bug Report thread. In my opinion there is no need to take care on Touchflow/Samsung UI specials or similar. First when I tested the HD2 I thought it was a problem of HTC's Touchlow/Sense. But now I know the biggest problems were problems of WM 6.5.
I agree to you and I also hope that WM 7 will be a great system but I guess until it works stabil and new phones are available it will be minimum end of the year. I just compare it to last year when 6.5 was announced. The first devices were available in end of October / beginning of November. And I think now in January / February these phones become stabil. Writing new software in most cases takes much more time than we expected.
In my opinion I think for Microsoft it is more important that WM 7 is great than it will be available during the next months.
Well but this is all speculation without a practical need.
Of course it is just my opinion, but I think improving Pleco's features itself is minimum risk for you and most benefit for your customers. I mean this looking at the cool new stuff that were already dicussed in the forum. The desktop version - as long as it has to be sequentially written to Pleco's mobile software - let you start a competition with Wenlin and others with much disadvantages and less benefit.
Mike, you seem to be in a real pickle, some people saying they want the desktop and shouldn't have to wait for other things and some people saying they want other things and shouldn't have to wait for the desktop and the other things are not all the same.
I think if you stop making announcements about new platforms you will leave so many people in the dark that you will alienate some existing customers and lose of lot of potential ones because they won't have any idea what is going on.
If I may suggest, it might be better to make up a chart that is easy to find for both existing and potential customers that will show everything that is being worked on and being considered listed in order of priority. It wouldn't be necessary to give hard timelines but some sort of broad comment by each would be nice. You could include either a comment such as "our main current focus" or " low priority" or a rough % estimate of resources going to each of the projects underway (whether new platforms or improvements to old ones) and for projects not underway something like "strongly under consideration", "somewhat under consideration", "mildly under consideration" and of course "not under consideration."
You might also include the ability for registered users to add a vote for whatever they want to see moved up or down the list so that you could have a running indication of sentiment. If something you weren't expecting came up in the results a simple question in the forums asking why people voted a certain way on a certain project would give you more information.
I think the result would be fewer surprises for you, a better idea of what actually matters to a very diverse group of people and informed customers who are not trying to guess what might be coming when and invariably being disappointed.
I think if you stop making announcements about new platforms you will leave so many people in the dark that you will alienate some existing customers and lose of lot of potential ones because they won't have any idea what is going on.
If I may suggest, it might be better to make up a chart that is easy to find for both existing and potential customers that will show everything that is being worked on and being considered listed in order of priority. It wouldn't be necessary to give hard timelines but some sort of broad comment by each would be nice. You could include either a comment such as "our main current focus" or " low priority" or a rough % estimate of resources going to each of the projects underway (whether new platforms or improvements to old ones) and for projects not underway something like "strongly under consideration", "somewhat under consideration", "mildly under consideration" and of course "not under consideration."
You might also include the ability for registered users to add a vote for whatever they want to see moved up or down the list so that you could have a running indication of sentiment. If something you weren't expecting came up in the results a simple question in the forums asking why people voted a certain way on a certain project would give you more information.
I think the result would be fewer surprises for you, a better idea of what actually matters to a very diverse group of people and informed customers who are not trying to guess what might be coming when and invariably being disappointed.
daniel123 - that's certainly true, absent iPhone we'd be a lot farther along on WM than we are now. WM7 availability actually isn't even as important as having a preview of it, I think - as long as Microsoft manages to wow everyone with the prototype, and as long as they're reasonably forthcoming with a developer preview emulator / APIs, it's not too too big a deal if users have to wait until the end of 2010 for it; the licensors and developers who'll actually make or break WM7 will probably be happy to have the extra time to get ready, and users can be won over in 2011 if the hardware / software are appealing enough; the nice thing about the cheapness of (most) iPhone software for WM / webOS / Android / etc purposes is that users don't feel too locked-in.
Jim - I don't think voting would help much, unfortunately; it's not going to be a large enough or representative sample to base decisions of this magnitude on. An "in progress" chart is an interesting idea, though, particularly if we can find a way to integrate it with Facebook / Twitter / etc. But I do think it's worth at least waiting until a) we've actually started working on a new platform version and b) we're far enough along that we have a rough idea whether it's possible / how long it'll take before we disclose that a port to that platform is in the works; that strikes a good balance between keeping people informed and not disappointing or deceiving them.
Jim - I don't think voting would help much, unfortunately; it's not going to be a large enough or representative sample to base decisions of this magnitude on. An "in progress" chart is an interesting idea, though, particularly if we can find a way to integrate it with Facebook / Twitter / etc. But I do think it's worth at least waiting until a) we've actually started working on a new platform version and b) we're far enough along that we have a rough idea whether it's possible / how long it'll take before we disclose that a port to that platform is in the works; that strikes a good balance between keeping people informed and not disappointing or deceiving them.
My thinking was that the in progress chart would be the important part. The reason I added the input from customers idea was because you are going to get input anyway. It is your choice whether you get it in the forums where it can turn into a sometimes heated discussion and is often not clear which gives you more to read and very little useful input or as a vote up or down for items on the in progress chart which is simple and clear. Not to say that you won't get comments on the forum still but the volume and intensity should drop some. And I do believe people would be more inclined to give input to the chart than in the forums. You could possibly make it a sticky in this forum or give it a forum of its own.
At any rate I see the chart as the most useful feature for you and the customers.
At any rate I see the chart as the most useful feature for you and the customers.
Malaili--To me, and, as far as I can tell from the various forums I check, the main point about flashcards is that they're portable. They are wasted on a computer because there are many other, complicated (computing-intensive) tasks that a desktop computer performs. I might MAKE my flashcards on the desktop, but I would use them on my PDA or on paper cards--whatever will fit into my pocket so I can use them everywhere.
To tell someone who has been in business for a decade to do marketing research within his field, is like telling an anteater to check out frogs as an alternative food source.
To tell someone who has been in business for a decade to do marketing research within his field, is like telling an anteater to check out frogs as an alternative food source.
Your entitled to your opinion.
I find using the flashcards on my pda very slow and somewhat tedious. Using them on a desktop would be much faster. I spend much more time at home on my desktop than I do going out.
As far as suggesting doing market research, a decade of being in business is in and of itself not a indication of marketing ability.
If it were then I would, (but I'm not) be an expert since I have been running a successful series of business' for more than four decades.
I will repeat, the PC based market is and will be far greater than all the PDA's and i-Phones combined.
I find using the flashcards on my pda very slow and somewhat tedious. Using them on a desktop would be much faster. I spend much more time at home on my desktop than I do going out.
As far as suggesting doing market research, a decade of being in business is in and of itself not a indication of marketing ability.
If it were then I would, (but I'm not) be an expert since I have been running a successful series of business' for more than four decades.
I will repeat, the PC based market is and will be far greater than all the PDA's and i-Phones combined.
Jim - well that's true, we're getting input from the forums if we don't get it from a survey, but with a few exceptions the discussions here never seem to get that heated, and often comments feed off of other comments - someone has a new idea nobody else thought of and several other people chime in to support it. Of course a survey has advantages too, does a much better job of drawing feedback out of new members... tough to say what would be the best approach.
character - we could build a survey into our iPhone app, but then we'd just be surveying iPhone users - not likely to get a lot of votes for Android in that group
character - we could build a survey into our iPhone app, but then we'd just be surveying iPhone users - not likely to get a lot of votes for Android in that group
This getting out of hand and far too time consuming.
I am not suggesting a survey by any stretch of the imagination. A survey of existing customers is almost a mute point. You need to bite the bullet and engage a market research company and let them do what it is they do.
Sheer numbers alone dictate the results, but it's only my opinion.
I am not suggesting a survey by any stretch of the imagination. A survey of existing customers is almost a mute point. You need to bite the bullet and engage a market research company and let them do what it is they do.
Sheer numbers alone dictate the results, but it's only my opinion.
If you're mostly concerned about flashcards, I really recommend you give Anki a try again. It improves a lot every couple of months, and with the PinYin Toolkit plug-in, it’s a simple process of exporting Pleco word-lists and importing it into your flash cards. There's plenty of things like graphs, a plug-in to track your progress with HSK word levels and top 3500 most-used characters, etc. that I doubt will be coming to Pleco anytime soon. Plus, you can use it on nearly every single platform. I've used it on a Windows PC, Mac, Internet browser, and iPhone, and everything syncs seamlessly.
Thank you for your interest, but I am almost computer illiterate. I have no idea how to import/export anything.
I don't even know how to back up my Pleco files. Mike had to do it for me when he visited Beijing a couple of years ago. Anki is for me very complicated and extremely time consuming entering words. Using Pleco, I can test the definition, the character, and the pinyin just by entering a character. That's why I am so adamant on having a desktop version.
Additionally, having shown Pleco to almost everyone I come in contact with who is studying Chinese, and to the best of my knowledge not one of which has purchased it. (I truly believe if it were on a desktop, most of them would purchase a copy.
Again thank you for your support.
I don't even know how to back up my Pleco files. Mike had to do it for me when he visited Beijing a couple of years ago. Anki is for me very complicated and extremely time consuming entering words. Using Pleco, I can test the definition, the character, and the pinyin just by entering a character. That's why I am so adamant on having a desktop version.
Additionally, having shown Pleco to almost everyone I come in contact with who is studying Chinese, and to the best of my knowledge not one of which has purchased it. (I truly believe if it were on a desktop, most of them would purchase a copy.
Again thank you for your support.