Pleco Desktop

[numble]

Frankly, I think spending a little bit of time to learn the ins and outs of Anki will be more efficient than waiting the months (or years) it will take for Pleco to come to the desktop. It used to be very time-consuming for me, until the Pinyin Toolkit plug-in (http://batterseapower.github.com/pinyin ... getit.html), and now everything is streamlined. Perhaps you might want to consider the iPhone version of Pleco, which allows you to e-mail your wordlist with just 2 screen taps.

Additionally, having shown Anki to almost everyone I come in contact with who is studying Chinese, and to the best of my knowledge every one of which has downloaded and used it.

 

[MALAILI]

Again thank you.

Buying an I phone is not an option at this time. They are about $800.00 plus a two year contract involving $xx.00 per month.

I don't understand what e-mailing my word list(s) would do. I can't figure out how that will help me with my flashcards.

Do you know what the advantages of using an i-Phone is over using a PDA?

Is this the correct for us to be discussing this?

 

[numble]

My only point is that when you e-mail your wordlist, you are exporting the wordlist, and then Anki can import it just fine--you can use the same definitions, or you can have the Pinyin Toolkit plug-in just add in everything automatically with one extra step.

Frankly, I think Pleco is stuck in a bind--either add more features or add more platforms--they'll have to work on Windows, Mac and iPad versions in the near future, in addition to continually updating Palm, iPhone and Windows Mobile. And then there are the demands for Android, online version, and other flavor of the month platforms.

I thought flashcards would be a neat feature until I delved into Anki and realized that it is unlikely that Pleco will ever have as full-featured of a flashcard program as Anki, which focuses all of its development to improving its flashcard system (compared to Pleco, which must split between supporting multiple platforms, writing programs for new platforms, fixing its file reader/editor, live browser, dictionaries, managing dictionary licensing, etc. ALONG with flashcard development)--maybe it'll have some neat stuff like handwriting recognition, but that's less useful in a desktop version anyway.

Therefore, I'd rather see time spent on improving things like the reader/editor/live view, which have no equivalents out there for the platforms I want (except expensive Wenlin and CC-CEDICT implementations, both that still aren't that good), as opposed to flashcards, which already have free fully featured and multi-platform programs like Anki out there in the wild.

 

[Zeldor]

Huh, I tried to use Anki, but that pinyin toolkit is not working for me at all, throwing weird errors.

 

[MALAILI]

Thanks for the input.

In the past, I tried the plug-in(s) for ANKI and it didn't work, but it could just as easily be that I didn't know how to install/use it. I am not much of a computer person.

Additionally, if I were to buy an i-Phone, I am afraid that I will not be able to transfer all of my files (over 300) to the i-Phone successfully. When I first bought Pleco a few years ago, it took me a couple of months and countless tries to download it to my Dell PDA.

 

[radioman]

@Malaili, I can tell you that the iPhone, especially the 3G and above is a great device. I will not go into any of the arguments with regard to who's got the best screen or best processor, etc.. The killer app is the App Store - so there are thousands and thousands of applications being written, and Apple's support by and large is very good. There is some VERY cool programs out there that you can utilize in your studies, and Pleco is at the front of the line.

You highlight the issue in China well with regard to Unicom. Last I checked, their offering was the most expensive, least feature rich (i.e., no Wifi ). I know they were talking about getting WiFi in the hardware, on later versions, but not sure that has happened yet. I'm so annoyed with Unicom that I even have a China Unicom 3G SIM card right now, all paid for and everything, and I STILL use China mobile and their WAP/Edge data connection with my iPhone. Its a bit slower, but much more reliable, much much cheaper, and China Mobile is easier to deal with in general.

It is very possible to buy a used foreign 3G iPhone in good shape for less than 3000RMB. My guess is that the warranty would be little if at all and could only be taken advantage of in a country that sells the particular version of iPhone you happen to own (after 1 year, there is no warranty unless someone bought an extended one). I know a bit about computers and can hack my way around a jailbroken phone but it just isn't simple. If you are not real (I mean REAL) computer savvy, I am comfortable stating it will NOT be worth you getting a used iPhone.

You could also consider a iPod Touch. Personally, I think this is a great way to go. I have one now along with my iPhone for a while and its a great device. I understand the drive to consolidate their mobile world onto one device (heck, I am one of em), but having two devices is by no means the end of the world. In fact it could be argued that there is some advantage to it with regard to overall battery life.
Advantange - you can find them at relatively reasonable prices; dedicated battery so you do not drain your phone's battery; and in fact, there are many programs that work very well to make wifi calls to landline phones in other countries (I use Skype ALL the time to call all over the world). As long as you have wifi, you can basically do it all. (You would need to get a headset with a Microphone).
Disadvantage - when you are in a taxi, you will not be able to use the data connection for the iPod touch (but you could always still use Pleco ).

Anyway, in summary, I personally think the Apple iPhone/iPod Touch (and I also believe iPad) are a great platforms. And if you can get past carrying two devices, then you have a number of options now that would allow you to utlize Pleco on the Apple platform.

Again thank you.
Buying an I phone is not an option at this time. They are about $800.00 plus a two year contract involving $xx.00 per month.
I don't understand what e-mailing my word list(s) would do. I can't figure out how that will help me with my flashcards.
Do you know what the advantages of using an i-Phone is over using a PDA?
Is this the correct for us to be discussing this?

 

[MALAILI]

Thank you, but I already have Pleco on my Dell PDA and it is working fine. I am not interested in another handheld. I need Pleco on my desktop.

I am not sure I understand your comment about having to carry two devices. Why would I have to carry two if I purchased an i-Phone?

 

[radioman]

Ha! Oh let me clarify.

In the past, I was carrying an iPod Touch and a regular phone around (two devices) for a while. My own view was that I would rather carry the iPod Touch and a regular phone (or Blackberry) than my old Palm TX and Blackberry. So I was only replying to your comment with regard to iPhone vs. other PDAs. (for which I have a bias toward Apple). The desktop thing I was not addressing.

Thank you, but I already have Pleco on my Dell PDA and it is working fine. I am not interested in another handheld. I need Pleco on my desktop.

I am not sure I understand your comment about having to carry two devices. Why would I have to carry two if I purchased an i-Phone?

 

[mfcb]

hmmm. i use QQ and fetion on my phone, at the same time lookup unknown words in pleco, if i want i can listen to music at the same time. i type my messages on a keyboard, no need to type around on virtual keyboards (even mine can vibrate on touch) but i still find it much much more convenient to have a key i can press. ok, i cant look photos at any time, but just today i found out, if its only pleco thats running, then sometimes the album also will work. yes, memory/resource management is a little bit sh*t on windows mobile, but i love my touch pro, and i will never betray it with an apple or any other 2-device-combination...

and, (for not being off-topic) i dont want a desktop version to learn with it, flashcards would be completely useless for me on the PC, i want it to use it for things where the screen real estate is missing on a phone (or pda)... sorting, organizing flashcards, creating flashcards, dictionaries... making backups, a.s.o.

 

[radioman]

Yeah, I maybe could argue against you with some of the cool things that I do with my iPhone, but I think it holds true that if you have enough screen real estate on the phone to do what you need to do, and the core programs you want, then you are ahead of the game no matter what phone you use.

100% agree on the quote below. Minor organization on the phone (e.g., add a card, or correct a card, is necessary, but house keeping, large scale organization, deck creation I believe belong on the desktop... (preferably with a 24 inch screen!)

and, (for not being off-topic) i dont want a desktop version to learn with it, flashcards would be completely useless for me on the PC, i want it to use it for things where the screen real estate is missing on a phone (or pda)... sorting, organizing flashcards, creating flashcards, dictionaries... making backups, a.s.o.

 

[Lurks]

These got to be an argument for cloud-based data store for Pleco hasn't there? Eg so you can monkey with flashcards on desktop, add vocab etc, and study from those lists on mobile.

I kind of think that a web-based pleco is the way to go. To say nothing of the fact that the line is being blurred between the PC and high-end smart phone anyway. It also has the added benefit of working on platforms Pleco is unlikely to arrive on any time soon, like Android... Seems to me the whole issue of licensing dictionaries in this way is easier also. Your account simply knows what you have access to. And of course there's room for cross-tool collaboration like, say, Skritter?

Mat.

 

[mikelove]

If we're just doing a desktop version for organizational work, then assuming the licensing can be worked out it probably would make more sense to put that online. Heck, to work on iPhone it'll pretty much have to be - it's either that or run a mini web server on one's computer - and iPhone is the only platform on which our desktop version is likely to support something resembling actual "sync"; I doubt we'll put in the engineering effort to build something new based on ActiveSync - let alone HotSync - at this point, so Palm/WM users would likely have to copy their flashcard databases back and forth from their desktops manually.

I've never met the Skritter guys but they seem pleasant enough from their website; however, as far as cross-tool collaboration for our possible online product, I don't think Skritter would make a whole lot of sense (even assuming they were interested), for the same Flash-related reasons I mentioned in my other post. Flash on desktops may still be going strong, but its prospects on mobiles are grim at best - it sounds now like even most current Android phones aren't going to get Flash 10.1 - so if we wanted a stroke order tester in our web-based product, it would be a lot more future-proof if we built it with nice wholesome <canvas> tags. But perhaps if they were interested we could work out some sort of system for easier vocabulary list sharing - even ignoring websites, it might be a good idea to provide a way to share flashcard lists between their online and our offline products.

 

[Lurks]

Yeah Mike I was only really thinking of vocab sharing. They work with people like Chinese Pod and MDBG like this. I don't think Flash-powered Skritter looks very likely to be suitable to integrate on mobile.

I'm not sure I quite understand the flashcard sharing problem for WinMo in particular, could you not at a minimum just implement IP-based sync. Doesn't seem to be any impediment to that on WinMo that I can see. It'd require you either connect to a local server (well, an App behaving as a server) or better still (in my view) your own 'cloud' on the actual Internet. Having your phone connected to WiFi so this doesn't come out of your 3G data allowance doesn't seem like a huge hardship and still way easier than copying files back and forth.

I find copying files to WinMo annoying purely by virtue of the fact it dismounts the storage card and thereby stops Pleco from working (which occasionally needs a restart to come back properly).

Still, by the time this becomes an issue I hope my WinMo Pleco will be a distant memory

Mat.

 

[mikelove]

IP-based sync wouldn't actually work that well on WM, given that so many of our WM-using customers have devices that they use exclusively for Pleco and don't even connect to the internet. And that percentage is likely to only increase going forward, as more people switch to other OSes for their calling / web-browsing / etc purposes.

Honestly, we have a pretty hard time relying on internet connections even on iPhone; I'm quite convinced that downloading add-on databases separately from the main app on iPhone was a smart move, especially now that Apple raised the non-WiFi app download size limit to 20MB (so our 19.5 MB app glides in nicely under that), but we get lots of email from people who don't have reliable / don't have any internet access on their iPhones / iPods and hence aren't able to to download and purchase add-on dictionaries. Though that situation should improve this summer, since according to many reports Apple's added USB file copying support in iPhone OS 3.2.

But given that there'd be a lot of OS-specific code involved even in IP-based sync, it would not be an insignificant project to get that working on WM, and since it's unlikely we'd have that sync system up and running much before WM7 is out anyway, I don't know if it would really be worth the investment - manually copying database files isn't that much more complicated than a built-in sync system, but it works for everyone regardless of whether or not their handheld is internet-connected, and it saves a lot of engineering time in our end that could be put towards more forward-looking projects.

 

[Lurks]

Okay well WM issues aside... the point I'm trying to make is the usefulness of constant connectivity as opposed to deliberate file shoveling. This is in the context of 'Future Products' right?

Shoveling a file onto Pleco, like say importing a flash card list, is certainly no big hardship. I was thinking more along the lines of the ability to share vocab via the web, with other apps, that sort of thing. The difference between a sort of IP/WiFi sync and the current process is that with the current process Pleco is basically stand alone to everything else I'm doing unless I specifically go off and make a flash card list like I did a couple of days ago with my university text book. The reality is I'm simply not going to shovel a little file just to add 20 words I'm studying, life is too short.

These days most things are getting more communicative with everything else and I could see a day when I'd want to use Pleco on the iPod and a desktop PC (application or web, doesn't matter). Sharing lists between platforms and sharing stuff with other Chinese language tools. That's what I see IP and cloud connectivity bringing to the table. Well that and, quite frankly, I'd rather not lose everything if I lose my mobile or break it or hell, just buy a new one and try to reinstall... manual backup, manual settings shoveling, data base files. This stuff is getting old

I come across cool and interesting things all the time on the web. I'd like to highlight a word and press a bookmarklet, or some other mechanic, to add to my mobile device for study on the go. That's the general concept. I'd fully expect that'd be something you'd look at post WM (6) anyway.

 

[mikelove]

In general I do think IP-based sync is better, yes - I'm just considering the practical issues in offering it on WM. And supporting sync with a whole database file would be useful for not-regularly-internet-connected iPhone / iPod users too. But an easy one-button online sync would definitely be something to aim for too on iPhone, both to encourage frequent backups and to allow one to bring in a small amount of new vocabulary one had just added to one's desktop / web-based flashcard list.

 

[numble]

From the Android thread:

If this sold well in spite of all of those limitations, that might make the case for a bigger commitment to Android. This would preclude spending any time on a desktop version, though, which I get the sense there may actually be a lot more interest in, and which would take a lot less work to bring up to the level of our full-featured software.

Desktop release estimates
Sep 06, 2005: "Sometime in 2006"
Nov 30, 2006: "Sometime this decade"
Dec 13, 2006: "we're shooting for late '07 but it could actually be out in beta sooner than that"
Mar 31, 2009: "Well as soon as the iPhone version is out, the desktop one is our top priority"
Apr 9, 2010: "[Android] would preclude spending any time on a desktop version"

Poor desktop version

 

[mikelove]

Heh, fun to see all of those collected in one place. This is why I hate giving out release date estimates

Since we managed to (mostly) settle the iPad issue in just a few days of work, though, my most recent desktop-has-to-wait comment can actually be pretty much withdrawn, which means that really the only thing standing in the way of a desktop version would be an Android one; either could be done alongside continuing iPhone / iPad work, but it's probably not feasible to do both.

So: desktop versus Android, fight! Is it more important to have Pleco on a sort-of-open mobile platform or on a completely open (from a third-party software perspective) desktop one?

Seriously, it might make sense to do a survey of some kind on this - we'd limit it to paying Pleco customers (do it through My Orders) to avoid any hijacking, but just ask the single question of whether we should invest our non-iPhone development time into Android, desktop, web-based, BlackBerry, etc.

 

[MALAILI]

DESKTOP!!!!!

I would think there couldn't be any question, the volume of desktop users far outnumbers any other consideration.

Even though I have a PDA and now an i-phone, I still spend more time using my laptop than either of my other devices combined.

For ease of use, a desktop is much much faster save handwriting recognition, which I don't use all that much and obviously use the PDA until you get it working on the i-phone.

I repeat, DESKTOP!!!

 

[hairyleprechaun]

Well, there certainly have been a lot of changes in the mobile computer/smart phone world in the last half a decade; some of which were expected, and others which weren't even imagined by those in the know.

I like the idea of a survey